Midcore is NOT a Difficulty setting - It's an Investment!

[AllenThyl]

I just wish their mechanics and structure of mechanics weren't so convaluted. Like the boss raises his right fist and starts casting "big hit," you see the marker, and you dodge it. But then they have the boss lift their fist and have no marker. It still casts "Big hit," but the player doesn't get the same marker structure and dies. Because the marker popped up at the very last second, and they can't dodge it.

If a long winded telegraph from the boss including a castbar is "too convoluted", then there is nothing left for mechanics but "don't stand in the orange". And the "split second telegraphs" aren't intended to be dodged, they are there to show where the unsafe spot is post-facto. If content can be cleared by someone equivalent to "no knowledge" despite being at endgame content, it simply has no difficulty. Might as well watch the game on youtube at that point.

Now, the simple solution is to focus the boss and watch the cast/boss, but the majority of people aren't going to do that and die.

"I didn't pay attention to the fight and died" sounds like a reasonable and good thing for a combat encounter in an action combat MMORPG. The fact that paying attention to a game while playing said game is constructed as some kind of herculean feat instead of being the absolute basic requirement is certainly a take. Again, might as well watch the game on youtube, that way you can watch something more interesting on the 2nd monitor, without impacting the experience of other people like many currently are doing, especially in Alliance Raids.

[Ardeth]

If a long winded telegraph from the boss including a castbar is "too convoluted", then there is nothing left for mechanics but "don't stand in the orange". And the "split second telegraphs" aren't intended to be dodged, they are there to show where the unsafe spot is post-facto. If content can be cleared by someone equivalent to "no knowledge" despite being at endgame content, it simply has no difficulty. Might as well watch the game on youtube at that point.



"I didn't pay attention to the fight and died" sounds like a reasonable and good thing for a combat encounter in an action combat MMORPG. The fact that paying attention to a game while playing said game is constructed as some kind of herculean feat instead of being the absolute basic requirement is certainly a take. Again, might as well watch the game on youtube, that way you can watch something more interesting on the 2nd monitor, without impacting the experience of other people like many currently are doing, especially in Alliance Raids.

Oh, hey, it's the person I told the other person to ignore. I'm going to do that and not answer any point you made!

[AllenThyl]

Oh, hey, it's the person I told the other person to ignore. I'm going to do that and not answer any point you made!

Where is the difference to before, you don't answer anything anyway. Long boss animations with cast bar are "convoluted mechanics". That's the example you gave for a mechanic that is "too hardcore". Not the alchemy mechanic of p8s (High Concept), or the dark / light towers of p12s p2. No, "long boss animation with cast bar". Your definition for the skill level of "midcore" has even less skilled players than the group usually described as "casual", that is how far off base the whole discussion has drifted. I mean, "hide behind the rock" mechanics aren't completely intuitive for a new player, are they? Does that make them "hardcore", despite it not being an issue in all the normal dungeons where they occur? Yeah, no developer in the world will be able to develop content for "midcore" people, if they only ever describe the very same content that currently qualifies as "casual" with a categorical unwillingness to actually learn anything new.

[Azurarok]

I personally think of it by how much each party member's responsible for the clear.

Hardcore, starting with Extremes from ShB onwards, generally expects everyone to do the dance right. Mistakes made by any individual usually blatantly penalizes the entire party. There's much less room to make up for the mistakes, and that naturally makes it a time sink, so the investment becomes more necessary.

Midcore, which I see as things like Bozja's CEs, CLL, and DR normal, can put just as much strain on the individual and punishes them hard, but typically only slows down the run, not kill it entirely with a body check or hard enrage. A few good players can drag the rest of the team across the finish line if it comes down to it.

In that sense I think normal content can sit around that Midcore line when they're still new, but they quickly become outgeared within the same patch, to the point mechanics become regularly skipped and some bosses may not even get to do much more than their tutorial phase. Chaotic falls under Hardcore for me.

[Collin_Sky]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

[Ardeth]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

I feel like the majority of players don't even think about it in terms of a team sport. I like to be proactive with skills I have to help when I can. If I play a class that has a res, I res. I try to gather if someone needs me to do it vs. Them doing it, but I still contribute what I can.

But the reality is that the majority of people are bad, and they don't care that they are bad. It's a game. They're putting in as much effort as they're going to put into it. Maybe they put 10% into their game and 90% into their life.

I think asking people on a forum what normal people should expect as difficulty is a fruitless endeavor. They simply don't care. They aren't coming here to find out, and they certainly aren't scouring the internet for guides.

I just think the bigger issue with the game is that there is this massive gap between your normal "normie" player and what the development team keeps releasing for content updates. The fact that there really hasn't been a single casual piece of content with any meat on its bones since last expansion shows that. And if you consider those players who bought the game at box price only to be neglected for 6 months, you'd understand why the game is bleeding subscribers.

That and a lot of hardcore players ignore Hanlon's razor and just assume malice.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

That's a pretty critical part of what people actually want out of "midcore content," though: a lack of major personal responsibility. You're acting like it's not okay for people to want that, but it's not like there are any rules for what people are allowed to want out of online games.

It's also not like the genre hasn't been trending in that direction, too. It's not the early 2000s anymore. In nearly all FFXIV/WoW/GW2/ESO content other than end-game raiding, personal responsibility is at a minimum; it kind of drives most modern MMO design decisions. Players are spoiled for choice these days. If failure results in tons of lost time, they'll just go play something else where that's not the case.

ETA: I'm not saying this trend is a good thing, FWIW. I like difficult content, personally. Savage raids are perfect for the amount of time I'm willing to put in. More just giving the context for for the trend (surprise, it's $$$).

[AllenThyl]

I personally think of it by how much each party member's responsible for the clear.

Hardcore, starting with Extremes from ShB onwards, generally expects everyone to do the dance right. Mistakes made by any individual usually blatantly penalizes the entire party. There's much less room to make up for the mistakes, and that naturally makes it a time sink, so the investment becomes more necessary.

Midcore, which I see as things like Bozja's CEs, CLL, and DR normal, can put just as much strain on the individual and punishes them hard, but typically only slows down the run, not kill it entirely with a body check or hard enrage. A few good players can drag the rest of the team across the finish line if it comes down to it.

In that sense I think normal content can sit around that Midcore line when they're still new, but they quickly become outgeared within the same patch, to the point mechanics become regularly skipped and some bosses may not even get to do much more than their tutorial phase. Chaotic falls under Hardcore for me.

The problem with that argumentation is, that the supposed "midcore" content is only "midcore" for a few key people, i.e. tanks / healers and dps that can rezz. Everyone else can just kick back and isn't really responsible for anything beside a faster clear time. And if there is one thing all the discussions about the low skill of the player base and the amount of dps that don't AoE in SB+ content have demonstrated, is that "other people's time" is not something that is worth anything to a majority of the playerbase. The whole point of failed mechanics penalizing the whole party and hard enrages is precisely to equalize this disparity in responsibility. A dps not doing the mechanic correctly => not enough damage to clear enrage => dps needs to do the mechanic properly like everyone else, not watch netflix on 2nd monitor while everyone else is doing all the work for them and they just get all the rewards anyway.

I mean, the duels in Bozja are 1v1 encounters, surely, that should be a "midcore" player's wet dream, right? Just the midcore player, the boss, no one to rely on but one's own skill, no one that could mess with the attempt. Except that means there is also no one to carry said "midcore". And despite there existing cheese strat, in the hundreds of hours I spent in Bozja, the number of people that would fall into the "midcore" category skill wise that have attempted the easiest one (Gabriel) I observed were around 2. The rest of the "midcores" were just people who spend time in the area, but still died to nearly every CE. Red Choctober, the big carrion bird, the laser tree, the math robot, the spidertron. Every single one of them regularly flooring 30 ray people.

[Shougun]

That's a pretty critical part of what people actually want out of "midcore content," though: a lack of major personal responsibility. You're acting like it's not okay for people to want that, but it's not like there are any rules for what people are allowed to want out of online games.

It's also not like the genre hasn't been trending in that direction, too. It's not the early 2000s anymore. In nearly all FFXIV/WoW/GW2/ESO content other than end-game raiding, personal responsibility is at a minimum; it kind of drives most modern MMO design decisions. Players are spoiled for choice these days. If failure results in tons of lost time, they'll just go play something else where that's not the case.

ETA: I'm not saying this trend is a good thing, FWIW. I like difficult content, personally. Savage raids are perfect for the amount of time I'm willing to put in. More just giving the context for for the trend (surprise, it's $$$).

For sake of it, at least for self it's not personal responsibility that's the issue.. when we discuss that with an 'I' but when we use a 'you' I dislike it lol. I don't want you to be able to easily ruin my ability to progress.

Ultimately it ends up being similar, but I think it's good to point out why this can be disliked is multi variable. Though it might lead to the idea that mechanics that must be done is fine, but not by specific individuals. 2 of 4 stand on a pad, cool - even better if the content adjusts based on those alive (so if it says "please have 2 people stand here, or the only surviving member" which also makes it transition smoothly into solo content later). 4 of 4 or the content cannot be done.. not great, 8 of 8? Get out of here. 24 of 24? I table flip. Or one specific individual (that isn't trolling) able to wipe everyone? Nah, I'm good.

I add trolling cause yeah sure the tank can run the boss into everyone, or you can literally chase down your party with a drop AoE, but normally unless it is a troll (or a party having a good time ) even these bad players making not great choices (standing in the wrong spot with a drop aoe or moving the boss) can be accounted for by others adjusting. The rate of this design is incredibly likely to complete, especially if there is just one competent person.

[CNitsah]

When reading static recruitments, words like: casual, midcore, semi-hardcore, and hardcore are often used to describe the static. Are they only referring to the static schedule?

If you want my opinion, casual static is an oxymoron. If you're at the stade where you participate in a static, you're no way casual. Or you don't know what that means. You're at least a midcore player.