Midcore is NOT a Difficulty setting - It's an Investment!

[AllenThyl]

I personally think of it by how much each party member's responsible for the clear.

Hardcore, starting with Extremes from ShB onwards, generally expects everyone to do the dance right. Mistakes made by any individual usually blatantly penalizes the entire party. There's much less room to make up for the mistakes, and that naturally makes it a time sink, so the investment becomes more necessary.

Midcore, which I see as things like Bozja's CEs, CLL, and DR normal, can put just as much strain on the individual and punishes them hard, but typically only slows down the run, not kill it entirely with a body check or hard enrage. A few good players can drag the rest of the team across the finish line if it comes down to it.

In that sense I think normal content can sit around that Midcore line when they're still new, but they quickly become outgeared within the same patch, to the point mechanics become regularly skipped and some bosses may not even get to do much more than their tutorial phase. Chaotic falls under Hardcore for me.

The problem with that argumentation is, that the supposed "midcore" content is only "midcore" for a few key people, i.e. tanks / healers and dps that can rezz. Everyone else can just kick back and isn't really responsible for anything beside a faster clear time. And if there is one thing all the discussions about the low skill of the player base and the amount of dps that don't AoE in SB+ content have demonstrated, is that "other people's time" is not something that is worth anything to a majority of the playerbase. The whole point of failed mechanics penalizing the whole party and hard enrages is precisely to equalize this disparity in responsibility. A dps not doing the mechanic correctly => not enough damage to clear enrage => dps needs to do the mechanic properly like everyone else, not watch netflix on 2nd monitor while everyone else is doing all the work for them and they just get all the rewards anyway.

I mean, the duels in Bozja are 1v1 encounters, surely, that should be a "midcore" player's wet dream, right? Just the midcore player, the boss, no one to rely on but one's own skill, no one that could mess with the attempt. Except that means there is also no one to carry said "midcore". And despite there existing cheese strat, in the hundreds of hours I spent in Bozja, the number of people that would fall into the "midcore" category skill wise that have attempted the easiest one (Gabriel) I observed were around 2. The rest of the "midcores" were just people who spend time in the area, but still died to nearly every CE. Red Choctober, the big carrion bird, the laser tree, the math robot, the spidertron. Every single one of them regularly flooring 30 ray people.

[Collin_Sky]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

[Ardeth]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

I feel like the majority of players don't even think about it in terms of a team sport. I like to be proactive with skills I have to help when I can. If I play a class that has a res, I res. I try to gather if someone needs me to do it vs. Them doing it, but I still contribute what I can.

But the reality is that the majority of people are bad, and they don't care that they are bad. It's a game. They're putting in as much effort as they're going to put into it. Maybe they put 10% into their game and 90% into their life.

I think asking people on a forum what normal people should expect as difficulty is a fruitless endeavor. They simply don't care. They aren't coming here to find out, and they certainly aren't scouring the internet for guides.

I just think the bigger issue with the game is that there is this massive gap between your normal "normie" player and what the development team keeps releasing for content updates. The fact that there really hasn't been a single casual piece of content with any meat on its bones since last expansion shows that. And if you consider those players who bought the game at box price only to be neglected for 6 months, you'd understand why the game is bleeding subscribers.

That and a lot of hardcore players ignore Hanlon's razor and just assume malice.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

That's a pretty critical part of what people actually want out of "midcore content," though: a lack of major personal responsibility. You're acting like it's not okay for people to want that, but it's not like there are any rules for what people are allowed to want out of online games.

It's also not like the genre hasn't been trending in that direction, too. It's not the early 2000s anymore. In nearly all FFXIV/WoW/GW2/ESO content other than end-game raiding, personal responsibility is at a minimum; it kind of drives most modern MMO design decisions. Players are spoiled for choice these days. If failure results in tons of lost time, they'll just go play something else where that's not the case.

ETA: I'm not saying this trend is a good thing, FWIW. I like difficult content, personally. Savage raids are perfect for the amount of time I'm willing to put in. More just giving the context for for the trend (surprise, it's $$$).

[Shougun]

That's a pretty critical part of what people actually want out of "midcore content," though: a lack of major personal responsibility. You're acting like it's not okay for people to want that, but it's not like there are any rules for what people are allowed to want out of online games.

It's also not like the genre hasn't been trending in that direction, too. It's not the early 2000s anymore. In nearly all FFXIV/WoW/GW2/ESO content other than end-game raiding, personal responsibility is at a minimum; it kind of drives most modern MMO design decisions. Players are spoiled for choice these days. If failure results in tons of lost time, they'll just go play something else where that's not the case.

ETA: I'm not saying this trend is a good thing, FWIW. I like difficult content, personally. Savage raids are perfect for the amount of time I'm willing to put in. More just giving the context for for the trend (surprise, it's $$$).

For sake of it, at least for self it's not personal responsibility that's the issue.. when we discuss that with an 'I' but when we use a 'you' I dislike it lol. I don't want you to be able to easily ruin my ability to progress.

Ultimately it ends up being similar, but I think it's good to point out why this can be disliked is multi variable. Though it might lead to the idea that mechanics that must be done is fine, but not by specific individuals. 2 of 4 stand on a pad, cool - even better if the content adjusts based on those alive (so if it says "please have 2 people stand here, or the only surviving member" which also makes it transition smoothly into solo content later). 4 of 4 or the content cannot be done.. not great, 8 of 8? Get out of here. 24 of 24? I table flip. Or one specific individual (that isn't trolling) able to wipe everyone? Nah, I'm good.

I add trolling cause yeah sure the tank can run the boss into everyone, or you can literally chase down your party with a drop AoE, but normally unless it is a troll (or a party having a good time ) even these bad players making not great choices (standing in the wrong spot with a drop aoe or moving the boss) can be accounted for by others adjusting. The rate of this design is incredibly likely to complete, especially if there is just one competent person.

[Fawkes]

Honestly one of the most revealing things in these midcore threads is how many people think it's completely okay to have the rest of the party (especially the healer) make up for their mistakes and think that if you die it only affects you

That's the most fun part about playing healer.

[Azurarok]

That's the most fun part about playing healer.

Yeah I really don't mind carrying people to the finish. It feels good to be one of the last ones standing at the end, too. Likewise, I rather not be afraid of being the one to ruin the run the entire time either.

Most people playing this game are giving it an active effort to try, and if I'm a healer I'd like to be able to keep encouraging them to. Restarting a fight from the beginning is much more discouraging, and since we're usually farming these things anyway, it's more productive for both the 'good' player to be able to consistently finish content and the 'bad' player to learn the content through subsequent runs instead of having the entire team stopped every time we hit a rough patch.

[Lilapop]

What about the slowly growing number of people who consider Savage casual content?

[Akonyl]

The best part of discussions about "midcore content" is people thinking they finally nailed down a definition for what "midcore" really means.

[Mawlzy]

The best part of discussions about "midcore content" is people thinking they finally nailed down a definition for what "midcore" really means.

Yeah, not making much progress here, huh? Maybe this new video by Caetsu will help. Maybe not.

https://youtu.be/Uzg_JwfnmJQ?si=pwZzouLA1iBm4jtA