Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Jettinson]

Should abandon the word midcore since it varies a lot on what people perceive. Heck I guess the Bozja CEs are considered brain dead despite people memeing about Red Chocobo wipes or any other CEs that punish you heavily, even Castrum was rough and initially people were scared to do Lyon's mini battle lol

[Yeol]

I dont think difficulty is the issue here...

Personally, it's about a fight that is recoverable. If a few people die during the fight, it shouldn't lead to immediate failure of the whole alliance.
I did not have any issue in Delebrum Savage nor in Castrum Lacus Litore. It worked just fine.

I think that the majority of the deaths could've easily been avoided if guides came out earlier. Sadly, Christmas Eve release didn't help with that. Early raid plans did not explain certain mechanics properly either, which led to people having bad experiences with PF during the first few days of launch.

I agree with you. I believe that people are exaggerating the difficulty. Does dying to spreads/pairs before towers sound like a hard mechanic? Yet there will always be players dying to it.

There are details not explained in early raid plans. Things people had to either be informed about or experience it by pulling the boss more. Which sadly was not happening PF. People instantly left after a few pulls without giving other players a chance to practice/understand certain mechanics properly.

[Jamini]

Have we just considered that perhaps Chaotic is Midcore, and people arguing it's not might just be... Casual?

Seriously, CoD gives you a million years to react to her tells. The tiles last 45 seconds. Even deaths on tile phase are workable if you have people on the platforms that can rez. Part 1 & 3 are entirely personal responsibility (and even allow a friendly healer to fix your mistakes).

If you consider Chaotic hardcore, please reevaluate your own capabilities. It's an extreme trial, an easier one.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Have we just considered that perhaps Chaotic is Midcore, and people arguing it's not might just be... Casual?

Seriously, CoD gives you a million years to react to her tells. The tiles last 45 seconds. Even deaths on tile phase are workable if you have people on the platforms that can rez. Part 1 & 3 are entirely personal responsibility (and even allow a friendly healer to fix your mistakes).

If you consider Chaotic hardcore, please reevaluate your own capabilities. It's an extreme trial, an easier one.

It doesn't really matter what you want to call it or the players who do (or don't do) it: the consensus seems to be that it's simply not what players in aggregate have been asking for. IMO, the game really didn't need another single-boss fight that requires external study guides. We have a billion of those already. I would love to see them escape from Instance Simulator 2k25, although I understand why that's a Herculean task.

ETA: it's worth noting that my favorite pieces of content are, in fact, single-boss fights that require external study guides, and I'm still making the claim that Chaotic was not a good or needed addition to the game. I would love to have something else in the game to do that's fun, but that just doesn't exist right now.

[jonimated]

I honestly thought that variant dungeons were going to be slightly harder than your average "expert" dungeons. I did 3 rounds of variant Sil'dihn before I couldn't do it anymore because I was bored out of my mind.

But hey, that's what criterion dungeons are there for, right? So I hopped into the queue with random people as a DPS, and what do I get? Wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe until our tank told us that they didn't expect the content to be so hard and they would rather "prog it with friends," so we ended up disbanding.

I mentioned it in another thread, Variant/Criterion was the moment I got disillusioned. I knew the chaotic raid was going to be the exact same way, so I didn't even bother unlocking it.

This is one-for-one my experience with Variant/Criterion as well.

Personally I haven’t done any hardcore raiding in an MMO in a very long time. Those days are behind me and my more recent attempt really showed me that. I hopped into an extreme trial back in Endwalker, Hydaelyn. I progged with a PF group for about 3-4 hours, and after hitting a wall on a mechanic (I can’t remember which one) I just though to myself “yeah this is cool but I really don’t have time for this type of content.” I enjoyed it in theory but I simply can’t commit that kind of time to a single fight in a single game.

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

On that definition I think many other MMOs do midcore content very well. WoW’s Mythic+ system I believe is an epitome example of midcore done right. Dungeon content that starts out at a difficulty level a little higher than the highest available “Dungeon Finder” difficulty, and scales up. Rewards scale with difficulty achieved. I would also put Mage Tower in there as a solo player example of really good midcore.

FFXIV has literally nothing like this. We have content that can be completed by literally any player regardless of skill (dungeons, normal trials, alliance raids), and content that requires a large organized party and hours/days/weeks of prog. There is no middle ground at all, and I think it’s a massive problem for the game.

[Mawlzy]

This is one-for-one my experience with Variant/Criterion as well.

Personally I haven’t done any hardcore raiding in an MMO in a very long time. Those days are behind me and my more recent attempt really showed me that. I hopped into an extreme trial back in Endwalker, Hydaelyn. I progged with a PF group for about 3-4 hours, and after hitting a wall on a mechanic (I can’t remember which one) I just though to myself “yeah this is cool but I really don’t have time for this type of content.” I enjoyed it in theory but I simply can’t commit that kind of time to a single fight in a single game.

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

On that definition I think many other MMOs do midcore content very well. WoW’s Mythic+ system I believe is an epitome example of midcore done right. Dungeon content that starts out at a difficulty level a little higher than the highest available “Dungeon Finder” difficulty, and scales up. Rewards scale with difficulty achieved. I would also put Mage Tower in there as a solo player example of really good midcore.

FFXIV has literally nothing like this. We have content that can be completed by literally any player regardless of skill (dungeons, normal trials, alliance raids), and content that requires a large organized party and hours/days/weeks of prog. There is no middle ground at all, and I think it’s a massive problem for the game.

The schism is so deep at this point that, in terms of combat content, FF14 is now two games living uncomfortably beneath the same login screen.

[BigCheez]

The schism is so deep at this point that, in terms of combat content, FF14 is now two games living uncomfortably beneath the same login screen.

Very true and a big problem IMO.

[Merrigan]

It doesn't really matter what you want to call it or the players who do (or don't do) it: the consensus seems to be that it's simply not what players in aggregate have been asking for. IMO, the game really didn't need another single-boss fight that requires external study guides. We have a billion of those already. I would love to see them escape from Instance Simulator 2k25, although I understand why that's a Herculean task.

ETA: it's worth noting that my favorite pieces of content are, in fact, single-boss fights that require external study guides, and I'm still making the claim that Chaotic was not a good or needed addition to the game. I would love to have something else in the game to do that's fun, but that just doesn't exist right now.

This seems to be one of the game's biggest challenges: getting out of a combat mode that relies exclusively on perfect choreography, and therefore on consulting a guide. Because this is what makes Ex / savage content so difficult for so many: not because of the difficulty of the mechanics as such, but rather because of the fact that everything has to be done right by everyone (or else, in too many cases, you'll end up with a general wipe). This inevitably entails a greater investment of time, a parameter that is perhaps overlooked a little too much in the definition of “HL”.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

FFXIV is missing fights where one experienced player can type out mechanics explanations in party chat in a few minutes and then within an hour you can clear the fight. Most of GW2's raid bosses are like this, and they're really fun to bring new players into, because the newbies start to contribute meaningfully basically right away, but experienced players can carry certain aspects.

Also, the GW2 devs are not afraid to say, "We don't care about your parse. Forget your uptime and go do these special mechanics." Hell, one boss called Deimos requires a role called a "hand-kiter," who does zero damage and just keeps themselves alive while, surprisingly, kiting hands along the edge of the arena all fight. FFXIV would never put something like that in a fight in a million years.

This seems to be one of the game's biggest challenges: getting out of a combat mode that relies exclusively on perfect choreography, and therefore on consulting a guide. Because this is what makes Ex / savage content so difficult for so many: not because of the difficulty of the mechanics as such, but rather because of the fact that everything has to be done right by everyone (or else, in too many cases, you'll end up with a general wipe). This inevitably entails a greater investment of time, a parameter that is perhaps overlooked a little too much in the definition of “HL”.

Some people don't like when I point this out, but, IMO, the core reason for this is that the game has terrible combat, which becomes immediately apparent when not masked by complex mechanics. This is why the new player experience is a slog, why getting level synced down is insufferable, why FATEs and Deep Dungeons are so boring, etc. If you're not doing advanced choreography, you're just stuck there pressing uninspiring buttons on a prescribed loop against no-mechanics trash enemies. It's why most end-game content is progression raiding.

[Merrigan]

Some people don't like when I point this out, but, IMO, the core reason for this is that the game has terrible combat, which becomes immediately apparent when not masked by complex mechanics. This is why the new player experience is a slog, why getting level synced down is insufferable, why FATEs and Deep Dungeons are so boring, etc. If you're not doing advanced choreography, you're just stuck there pressing uninspiring buttons on a prescribed loop against no-mechanics trash enemies. It's why most end-game content is progression raiding.

I'm inclined to be less harsh than you on the combat system (it allows for extensive mapping, a mechanic I really like), but it's indeed this aspect that really gets in the way. The game is rigid, terribly rigid. Since there's almost no “random” aspect, no damage done to dps on a regular basis and without it being phoned in / pre-scripted, the game HAS to compensate by setting up very punishing things.

In short: if you indicate AOEs with orange cones, your orange cone has to do twice as much damage as if it wasn't indicated. If the mechanics are choreographed, they have to be ultra-punitive when badly executed. And this can sometimes lead to terribly frustrating situations, where your mastery of your class has no impact on the course of the fight. How many times, as a healer, have I spotted a dps who was poorly playing... But for whom I could do absolutely nothing, because the game meant that if he missed something, death was automatic?

There is one pleasing aspect, however: the chaotic raid does introduce a random aspect that foreshadows a possible evolution, and that's a good sign. In the case of Chaotic Raid, their mistake (IMO, of course) was to associate randomness with the punishing aspect of the mechanics. The result is not midcore content, but HL content.