How would you improve Dawntrail's writing?

[SomeGuy22]

I like the concept of a handful of Scions joining us, while working with new characters as well. It makes for a nice rotating roster (...)

It's a shame, it would've been the perfect opportunity to keep the Scions fresh or to do a pseudo time skip with no need of making the time period actually change too much. Like having the twins be off helping in Garlemald for an expansion and the next time you see them they finally hit their growth spurt or something

[CuteBucket]

How would I improve Dawntrail's writing? In the simplest terms: Show, don't tell.

Something everyone has probably heard if you get into writing, but it's a well-known saying for a reason.

I'm just a hobby writer, but I took lots of college creative writing classes and thus did a lot of both writing and reading other student's work, because part of our grade was giving good constructive criticism of everyone else's writing. There is a time for telling over showing, mostly when you need to get to a point quickly and not slog down the pacing but still convey needed information. But so much of Dawntrail is just...listening to characters (mostly Wuk Lamat, but all the characters do it at some point) sit there and explain things to WoL. Any game like this is going to have a certain amount of that, but a good writer will know when they need to stop and explain something and when they don't.

Think about the beginning of Shadowbringers. If it were written like Dawntrail, the Crystal Exarch would be there immediately once we get to the First and start monologing to us about how this is a place called Norvrant and that town over there is called the Crystarium, and here's the story about how I, the Crystal Exarch, founded it myself! And we'd run around and click on him from time to time so he can tell us about the Flood of Light and what a Sineater is, then he'd drag us back to town and explain every minor character and area there. That sounds boring AF and would probably give Exarch a terrible first impression with the players. That's more or less exactly what Wuk Lamat does with us in Tulliyolal.

Instead, we are dumped right into a new and mysterious world where the sky and the trees looks strange to us. There's no one in sight, and our WoL is left to wander around and figure things out for themselves. We come across a guy who looks eerily like the man we meet at the very beginning ARR, who gives us some information before we venture off. We see a Sin Eater for the first time when one appears and Lyna kills it, and then see the ring it drops, the same one the man we met earlier wore, showing us right away what these monsters are capable of and how they haunt this world. Eventually we meet up with the Crystal Exarch who gives us some exposition, but at that point we are excited to learn more after what we've already seen and experienced, so it feels welcome, and even then, the Exarch still has his secrets, which makes us suspicious of his intentions but also curious to figure out what his angle is.

Who or what is mysterious or makes us want to learn more in Tural? Certainly not Wuk Lamat. Bakool JaJa's not that mysterious or interesting when he shows up, he just does a standard schoolyard bully routine and then leaves. Zoraal Ja? He's so "mysterious" I think the writers forgot to actually give him any kind of reasoning or personality. Even with him, Krile immediately spoils all the mystery for us by telling us right out the gate that he has "dark and violent thoughts" or something like that. Could have been a great moment to actually SHOW WoL an Echo vision of a relevant moment from Zoraal Ja's past and make us curious about him. But no, we're just told, via another character, that he's weird and spooky while he meanders around the plot barely doing anything on screen until we inevitably confront him.

I could go on and on about these kinds of moments because DT is full of them, but hopefully that's enough to get the idea.

[Vespar]

SPOILER ALERT FOR GAME UP TO AND INCLUDING DAWNTRAIL...

1. What would you have done differently with Dawntrail's writing and how would you have done it?

*SHOW!! Dont tell!!! Don't have interesting moments off screen! Use them to create interesting character development! (ie. Cooking scene, Alpaca-catching scene)

*Do not take a story centered around the player as the main character, and suddenly exclude them from being the main character.

*Give characters in the story a fair amount of time to shine on their own, and dont hyper fixate on only one character (Looking at you, Wuk Lamat). Before Dawntrail, most major characters in the story got some decent screen time. Even when the story focused around Yda during Stormblood as an example, she was never the ONLY character that got any screen time! We looked in on other characters and each had their own character development and interesting observations, moments, etc. And during Shadowbringers, the Exarch was never constantly front and center stealing the show at every waking moment!

* Speaking of stealing the show... Wuk Lamat in the last boss fight... I dunno how I would have written that, but it certainly wouldnt have been that!


2. What are some suggestions you have for how the MSQ could go in the future?

*Biggest one is dont hype up a character in media trailers, etc and then do them dirty with all too little character development. Krile and her earring were quite important plot devices, so spend some time giving us reasons to believe that!
Her earring could have been investigated much more throughout the game and then we should have had some epiphany moment that let us know that the earring was key of sorts to open the gate. These moments are left to the player to just kind of assume "Oh that is what it is for. DO NOT DO THIS! never assume your player knows. Fill in those gaps and make it more interesting!

*Also, on the Krile topic, I believe her meeting with her parents could have been done different. Instead of her parents telling their story through dialogue the entire time, flashback scenes of the event would have been much more impactful! I mean this is a game, not a book. Make better use of those cutscenes!

*Give characters more screen time. Even witty banter along the road goes a long way to adding depth and polish to a story. Dont hyper fixate on one character to the detriment of all others. Reactions from other characters like Alisaie and Alphinaud and Erenville towards Wuk Lamat was severely under utilized. I nearly forgot they were even there with us most of the time! Their banter and observations could have been used as a mechanism to help Wuk lamat grow as a person!

*Dont bring in characters solely for use as a plot device. For example: Y'shtola's presence has mostly been to move the plot forward purely because she can see aether. But otherwise no explanation is given for how she knows the gate was a "portal to another reflection". (SHOW DONT TELL! How does she know? Let us see through her eyes, or have a scene with her figuring it out and that's why she's knows or whatever the case might be.)

*Krile's story had the ability to be amazing and was okay, but it felt like so little! It needed more fleshing out! Erenville's story also. Also, would have loved to see more of Kona, Thancred and Urianger's struggles too and how they were faring during the journey. Set them up for truly being in opposition to us, and also giving interesting development to kona and his ambitions/realizations.

3. What are some parts of the writing that you actually think are good and would like to see more of?

As far as writing, the best writing we got was Arcadion... the only memorable part of Dawntrail so far in my opinion.

But I want to see more ORGIN STORY for Erenville and Krile, though it may be too late for that now..

[Hallarem]

[COLOR="red"]But I want to see more ORGIN STORY for Erenville and Krile, though it may be too late for that now..

I wanted to see an origin story for Garlemald, maybe even more story for Zenos to explain his stupid and unnecessary resurrection plot that went nowhere in the end.

But oopsie doopsie, nuked and rushed that along with the whole of Endwalker, smashing two expansions into one because of .... Dawntrail??? and this is what we get. Didn't think this game would make feel the same as Blizzard when I quit before Shadowlands, but it's just another soulless corporation that doesn't give a crap about it's playerbase.

Where are these decisions coming from? One of the main antagonists we have been fighting against for multiple expansions, gets destroyed offscreen, instead of us delving into their society, their royal family, getting to see things from their perspective, influence them, plot against them, see the nuance of any breakaway factions and the citizens opinions on a personal level.

Instead we get a juvenile story, where the main character gets so many lines in one expansion that she shoots to the THIRD MOST LINES in the whole game after Alphinaud and Alisaie? When Krile and Erenville deserved their own spotlight, I don't count the other Scions, because I'm pretty sure they were just there for the P.R because they can't apparently write a story without them being in the backround. (I forgive Estinien, man's on a holiday, I'll leave him be.) LOL.

I swear, all we're missing is some hidden Ascian plot and the shallow grave for this equally shallow writing team's efforts has been finished. You don't put amateurs like this in charge of a franchise that hangs on it's writing as one of the main selling points.

[Immut]

Have less of it.

The problem isn't that the story is bad. The problem is they tried to cram so much story into one expansion while adhering to their awful content formula. As a result the story is rushed because it's trying to hit every beat and drags on forever because there's so many beats to hit. The launch story should have ended with Wuk Lamat becoming dawnservant, then dripfeed the whole Alexandria story over postgame. This would give you enough time to establish some actual character growth instead of just saying it happened and expecting nobody to question it. Also, include the desert because it makes no sense that those guys just got left in the cold during her world tour and as a result that whole region gets essentially skipped over.

[Sarevok_Thordin]

1. Reduce Wuk Lamat's role once the nature of Alexandria is revealed. Make Sphene OUR problem, not theirs.

2. More screentime for Krile. It's her own personal journey players are likely to be invested in more and thus she should be interacting with us more. Alphnaud should also be more present in her story given their senpai/kouhai relationship and Krile does think very fondly of him (Stormblood). He should have been present for the living memory.

3. The WoL should have branching choices throughout the game to start presenting themselves in a particular light throughout the story. Small things like either just continuing to act like a good guy trying to save everyone, or presenting themselves in a more authoritive light as they embrace their past life as the last warden of the ancients. The same end result, but the potential to get differing reactions from everyone around them. It would give New Game+ a bit of of a reason to be used too.

Just off the top of my head.

[Allooutrick]

A solid first step is remove Wuk Lamat from the story.

[Oizen]

I'd start with a round of layoffs in CBU3

[Rinoa_353]

1. What would you have done differently with Dawntrail's writing and how would you have done it?

I would have split the MSQ of DT over two expansions, have the Rite of Succession and exploration of Tural that leads to bringing down the Skyruin for 7.0 and Alexandria and Sphene/Zuraal Ja for 8.0.


Just as DT began, Wuk Lamat arrives on the shores of Old Sharlayan looking to recruit help for her shot at the Rite of Succession and meets you and the Scions. You board the ship and arrive to Tuliyollal and begin exploring and mingling with the locals to learn about the New World. Then you meet with Gulool Ja Ja and learn about the Rite of Succession and set off to help Wuk Lamat in an advisory role and that certain elements of the trials can only be done by the claimants with no outside help. You go around learning about the diverse cultures of Tural while Wuk Lamat is doing her trial off screen for certain moments allowing the focus of the story to revolve around the WoL. Many people felt the WoL was made into a background character and I felt the same when they have always been front and center since ARR prior to DT. This is supposed to be your vacation after all and you go back to being a simple adventurer after saving the universe in EW. This also allows more time to give Krile, Erenville, the other Scions and even Gulool Ja Ja, Koana, Zuraal Ja and Bakool Ja Ja more screen time to deepen their own stories since they felt rushed overall. You explore learning the cultures, mysteries and solving puzzles and such. When you run into Wuk Lamat doing her trial at certain points, she regales her progress through flashbacks and then have you and the Scions advise her on her next move towards earning her stones and after the scenes of bonding with you for a bit, she sets off to continue her trials alone. This happens a few times per zone so that the story of the Rite of Succession is running concurrently with your own adventures as the WoL exploring Tural. One thing DT did right was the world building but it fell flat when it wasn't utilized to the max and makes the zones feel empty. They should have been filled with many side quest that had you solve puzzles, solo duties inside caves and ruins and more to go along with the dungeons and the MSQ. This would have expanded the lore and the cultures of each zone that were intriguing but wasn't used enough.


I was hoping they had actual conflicts with the other Scions where you even have a few solo duties fighting against them to try and bar your/Wuk's progress. Not where your friendship is ruined but friendly competition that leads to blows resulting in blooded lips and black eyes and more. The WoL can have more Echo flashbacks to learn more of the other claimants to see how they tick and the wrongs they do to get what they want. You also learn more about why Zuraal Ja feels the way he did so he becomes a more complex villain later on and the same for Bakool Ja Ja during their childhood. Having this would have Game of Thrones-like political intrigue between the claimants. Also switch certain moments like have one of the Mamool claimants work with Wuk Lamat during the food trial so you see the conlifcts of those pairings to make it more interesting. The solo duty of Gulool Ja Ja's shade should have been a trial. The trial of Valigarmanda is moved to be the final boss of 7.0 and instead use the bird that attacked the band of outlaw giants to be the trial instead after climbing the mountain and fighting another beast for that dungeon prior to the trial. The conditions to win the stone for the trial in Urqopacha was to climb the mountain and get something that would be used during the ceremony of crowning the next Dawnservant and replenish the ice prison of Valigarmanda. You eventually advise and see Wuk Lamat win the throne and she still elevates Koana to rule with her. Zuraal Ja having done what he did in Mamool would have quietly faded into the background after being disqualified.


Then for the actual ceremony, you are there to witness the ice prison of the Skyruin being replenished as part of the ceremony after departing the city to the temple housing Valigarmanda where you see cutscenes of various cultures celebrating as a royal procession of sorts heads to Urqopacha. At the actual ceremony to replenish the ice prison of Valigarmanda, something goes wrong and it's unleashed when Bakool Ja Ja does what he did but here during the ceremony as revenge for losing the Rite. Now Wuk Lamat having matured during her journey joins the Scions and lets her brother rule in her place to keep the people calm and prepared to deal with the Skyruin from Tuliyollal. Gulool Ja Ja and a living Cahciua also joins you to fight the Skyruin and learn more about their past and such. You then head north to Xak Tural and help the people there deal with the destruction Valigarmanda is unleashing and fighting off minions it has recruited (other Tural Vidraal). Since the icy prison has weakened Valigarmanda, it fled north to seal itself off similar to the situation of the Northern Crater of FFVII and erected a barrier to protect itself while it regains full strength.

Bakool Ja Ja is sentenced to be executed by Koana and an angry crowd of people in Tuliyollal for committing the heinous crime of releasing Valigarmanda. He is sent to prison to await his execution until after the Skyruin is dealt with first. In the course of chasing after Valigarmanda, you learn about the origin of the blessed twins and proceed to end that and Bakool Ja Ja is pardoned and he becomes an anti-hero and sets out to help fight off Valigarmanda's minions with their entourage and you encounter them here and there as part of the terms for his pardon. Tural needs strong warriors and Bakool Ja Ja would better serve in that role while the Skyruin is rampaging and repent for his crime of releasing it.

You eventually reach the end and fight the Skyruin and since Zuraal Ja had faded away earlier, Gulool Ja Ja takes his place during the trial fight and Cahcuia in place of Koana. Then the story ends with celebrating with ending the threat of the Skyruin for good this time. In the course of the MSQ of 7.0, you had met a living Cahcuia to flesh out the story revolving around Erenville and learn more about Krile and Galuf from Gulool Ja Ja. Cahcuia could even have helped fight with your party leading up to the final fight with the Skyruin in place of Koana that is in Tuliyollal to keep the population calm. This would create many funny and nice bonding scenes between her and Erenville along with Gulool Ja Ja and Wuk Lamat. This would also replace some of the Scions so they they would be used in 8.0 as some feel they are around too much after they retired in EW. After the closing credits, Gulool Ja Ja enjoys his retirement to spar with Estinian and Cahcuia boards the train from Shaaloani after saying goodbye to Erenville who is still journeying with the WoL around Tural and heads back to Yyasulani to enjoy her retirement. You would then see the scene of Zuraal Ja speaking with Sphene before opening the gate.

The patches would start with the exploration of the Skydeep Cenote and finding the gate to the Golden city that leads to the barrier of Alexandria appearing and Zuraal Ja finally reappearing and murdering his father to build up the tension going into 8.0. Another dungeon could replace the Skydeep Cenote during the Mamool portion of the MSQ in 7.0. The MSQ for 8.0, it would be about Alexandria, Sphene and Zuraal Ja trying to conquer the Source and it would also allow for more zones to be added to expand upon the Ninth Reflection and the ruins caused by the Storm Surge as you go to fix that similar to what you did in ShB for the First Reflection.

I also would remove Heritage Found and Living Memory in DT to be used in 8.0 and then add two more unique zones in Xak Tural like an expanded Lapis Canyon revolving around the Whalaqee and another, perhaps the northern cold region that has a large evergreen forest, like the region of Skyrim of sorts from The Elder Scrolls games. One of those two zones would also be the final zone where the Skyruin has ravaged the land and hid behind the barrier it created to build up strength too. During the events of the final zone leading up to the final fight of 7.0, the sky is raining fire to give it tension and then clears up to have regular weather after the Skyruin is defeated. This is my idea on what could havce been done to make DT better and expand the story around Alexandria because it honestly felt really rushed and Solution Nine would be the main city for 8.0 and maybe have a settlement of the Whalaqee be the end game location for 7.0.

[IndraSyngiwyb]

Part 1.) First of all, make Wuk Lamat a naive, arrogant, spoiled little turd at the beginning. One who *actually* needs mentoring. Have the WoL *actually* doubt that Wuk is leader material. Have the WoL say that TO her face instead of saying it behind her back to her father.

Have Wuk get a big head because she "solved" the issue of the dying crops with the float. When, in reality, she just did what she wanted to do and it just so *happened* to be the right answer. Then, when she gets to Urqopacha and has to trade away the wool, have her fail miserably at that because she got cocky. Make it so she is forced to acknowledge that she doesn't know everything and ask the WoL for help. That would humanize her immensely and would also give us the "mentor" role we were allegedly meant to have.

Then have Wuk talk about how she's always been doubted by everyone in her life. That way her arrogance has a reason for existing. She HAS to pretend to be badass to avoid feeling the pain of her own self-doubt. Have a scene with Koana where he speaks with the WoL and doubts Wuk's abilities, just to drive home that even her own dear brother doubts her. That would immediately make Wuk a more relatable and likeable character.

Also, instead of everyone and their mom calling her Lamat'yi, make it a cute nickname her father gave her as a kid. One that embarrasses her when he uses it. That makes the nickname more special when it is used, instead of it being something everyone is allowed to call her.

Instead of pretending the Final Days didn't happen, actually SHOW the effect the Final Days had on Tuliyollal. You could even make it so the Head of Wisdom worked himself to death trying to protect his people during those trying times. Show the people mourning, talking about everything they lost. Show the physical destruction the Final Days left behind on the land and people's homes.

Give Zoraal'Ja more motivation apart from "I wanna be better than Daddy." Maybe have him see how the Head of Wisdom worked himself to death trying to help during the Final Days. And show how disappointed he is in how little his fathers managed to do to stop the carnage. THAT could be his driving force. I.e. "My fathers were too weak to protect Tuliyollal during the Final Days. I should be Dawnservant. I would protect our country better." That would humanize him more instead of him just being a mustache-twirling super-villain with nothing but selfish goals.

Then, when he falls to evil, it feels a lot more painful because you know, at the beginning, he had good intentions. They were just twisted and used by Sphene to further her own goals.