So how would you buff bard? (Just like to hear peoples thoughts)

[Connor]

Sadly their remedy was the exact opposite of how, in game design, you're supposed to remedy this.

You aren't supposed to sand all the edges off. You're supposed to keep them, just make them... rubbery? To drop the analogy, you want everyone to feel overpowered, and ideally at completely different things, and ideally then something they're the only one feeling that OP at. But, it only feels that may. It's all smoke&mirrors, the game is created so that your seemingly-overpowered nature is expected and already factored in.

So say one job is best at augmenting a single player, and to a ridiculous degree. But this in turn is factored in because they themselves deal so little damage that it balances out, and their augmentation is in flat values so it doesn't matter who they put it on (to not create further buff problems down the line). Another job, say Bard, augments the whole group by a fairly substantial amount, but maybe doesn't even attack, they're busy playing the harp or lute. Etc etc.

Unfortunately it’s definitely true that the devs seem to love dropping entire concepts instead of making the necessary adjustments to refine them. Whether it’s something small like Bard’s support songs or much more sweeping changes like Summoner’s rework.

And the saddest part is that everytime they do they mostly just cause new issues precisely by removing things from jobs that needed refinement lol. As a result [almost] every job ends up being ground down until they’re all just slightly different coloured piles of dust. Bard is at that point where we don’t even have the dust left lol, like even in the current ‘balance’ it doesn’t feel* like it contributes anything like other jobs do (relative to anything non-phys-ranged). It still just feels, bad , for want of a better word lol

* Addendum: ‘feels bad’ does not mean ‘literally outputs bad dps’

[mallleable]

Another things that annoys me about BRD is that while it's Fine™ in like savage, and ultimates, its rotation is unironically incredibly fragile in instances like dungeons, and alliance raids where your rotation can be obliterated in ways that no other job has to worry about depending on how fast or slow enemies get killed. They unironically need to make BRD easier to play in 'casual' fights.

[Akonyl]

Scale RDPS buffs based on how many people are in the party. I know Criterion apparently has a special thing for this, but I think it should scale to other content too (and just party sizes in general).

As for how the buff happens potency-wise, I don't really care. I don't think it makes the job particularly more interesting to have DoTs buffed, or another thing buffed, or what, if the end result of boss damage is the same.

I'm fine with walk-casting/some version of casting being added to the job if it's what it takes for the devs to believe a ranged should get to do damage.

There's other wishful ideas I have for the class, but it's not really relevant to buffs themselves.

[Connor]

They really aren't. Let's take the current alliance raid, the Ark Angels fight can end towards the end of Mage's Ballad with not enough time to use Army's Paean early which means a BRD will be down gauge, Army's Muse buff and coda going into the Shadow Lord fight. BRD can't use Army's Paean out of combat either. And unlike every other job, BRD did not receive buffs to get a free damage during burst at the start of the expansion. Doing something like Barrage grants a free Apex/Blast Arrow, and deleting coda while making Radiant Finale, and Encore flat buff/potency, and making Muse a passive trait would actually make BRD a lot more flexible.

In my experience it’s more ‘when things go wrong’ that Bard can be heavily punished with cool-down misalignment - namely dying lol. Like if you just hit Ballad then somehow die so now it’s on cool-down but the remaining song cycle is 90 seconds, so there’s like 30 seconds of potentially having to wait for Ballad with no song up.

Or if you mistakenly hit (or don’t hit in some cases lol) the song before the enemy disappears so you’re stuck having to wait for them to come back to get the rotation ‘back on track’ lol.

Summoner has a similar issue with Egi / Demi cooldowns; dying or whatever can have a really big impact on your how you cycle through the overall rotation.

I guess many people would argue it’s a skill issue so it shouldn’t be changed, but it does feel weird that they’re like ‘we want to make the game extremely forgiving and lenient especially towards new players’, then simultaneously make certain jobs that can completely fall apart entirely if ‘mishandled’. Though I can’t speak to the extent to which every job is like this (since I haven’t played them), so I guess maybe they’re all could be like that.

Maybe they could have both? Loosen the punishment Bards receive for dying without removing it? Like maybe it could have emergency cool-down that resets song cooldowns but on like a Hallowed Ground length cool-down? Makes things a bit easier if recovering but doesn’t completely remove ‘skill expression’ (cuz if you die again you’re still screwed lol)

[Valence]

In my experience it’s more ‘when things go wrong’ that Bard can be heavily punished with cool-down misalignment - namely dying lol. Like if you just hit Ballad then somehow die so now it’s on cool-down but the remaining song cycle is 90 seconds, so there’s like 30 seconds of potentially having to wait for Ballad with no song up.

Or if you mistakenly hit (or don’t hit in some cases lol) the song before the enemy disappears so you’re stuck having to wait for them to come back to get the rotation ‘back on track’ lol.

Summoner has a similar issue with Egi / Demi cooldowns; dying or whatever can have a really big impact on your how you cycle through the overall rotation.

I guess many people would argue it’s a skill issue so it shouldn’t be changed, but it does feel weird that they’re like ‘we want to make the game extremely forgiving and lenient especially towards new players’, then simultaneously make certain jobs that can completely fall apart entirely if ‘mishandled’. Though I can’t speak to the extent to which every job is like this (since I haven’t played them), so I guess maybe they’re all could be like that.

Maybe they could have both? Loosen the punishment Bards receive for dying without removing it? Like maybe it could have emergency cool-down that resets song cooldowns but on like a Hallowed Ground length cool-down? Makes things a bit easier if recovering but doesn’t completely remove ‘skill expression’ (cuz if you die again you’re still screwed lol)

I don't want to lose the punishment for dying on the job (or on any job). If anything BRD is super easy to stay aligned with, since you just have to wait for the next song to come off CD and carry on with your life. Gauge is flexible and you can also realign Apex as you go over time. Punishment allows for skill expression.
The actual problem is that it removes you from having fun with repertoire gameplay for too long, which was less of a problem before because songs were only 30s long, which meant even dying at the start of one, the time for you to be raised, would mean you'd be songless for at best 10-15s, which was fine. Now though, it can go up to 25-30s, which is less fine.

[BabyYoda]

It really comes to what makes bard, bard?

Is it walkcasting? Machinist will have that
is it buffs? Dance will have that

it is really what could make bard bard and considering other roles to balance it.

[Connor]

I don't want to lose the punishment for dying on the job (or on any job). If anything BRD is super easy to stay aligned with, since you just have to wait for the next song to come off CD and carry on with your life. Gauge is flexible and you can also realign Apex as you go over time. Punishment allows for skill expression.
The actual problem is that it removes you from having fun with repertoire gameplay for too long, which was less of a problem before because songs were only 30s long, which meant even dying at the start of one, the time for you to be raised, would mean you'd be songless for at best 10-15s, which was fine. Now though, it can go up to 25-30s, which is less fine.

That’s fair. I’m not saying one or the other is the ‘right’ way, whether it’s wanting to retain skill expression or wanting to look into where the floor is/can be. I think it’d be nice if the skill floor was ‘accessible for anyone’, but I wouldn’t want to sacrifice a satisfying ‘ceiling’ for that either.

And I guess there is a case of like, it sucks at the time, but then next time you do [the content] you know to be wary of song timing in case of jumps or whatever lol.

So it’s not like there’s no room to players to improve, and being able to ‘fail’ is what drives people to improve in the first place. Plus, it’s not like we’d have much else going on if song timing requirements were removed really lol. Ultimately it wouldn’t really ‘move the needle’ on how Bard measures up to other jobs either I think.

As an aside I feel the ‘DoT decisions’ they’ve made are more ‘devs making decisions for us’ than anything from what Bards have said lol. I guess because of the debuff limit or something. I still think it’s chillingly plausible that we could end up seeing a DoT-less Bard in 8.0. Though, maybe reinstating some of the ‘DoT interactions’ could give Bard a decent boost in output, like Shadowbite potency increases or whatever else.

[mallleable]

I actually don't think BRD will lose its dot in 8.0 or any kind of rework as I think timer tracking is a core part of BRD's gameplay. At most I think its dots will, and should be consolidated to just Caustic Bite with some kind of proc interaction with Sidewinder (pair up the poison, and snake themed attacks). Stormbite should be changed so it isn't a DOT, and Iron Jaws should be replaced with something else as well (AOE Caustic Bite perhaps).

[Shurrikhan]

Sorry in advance for nitpicks.

I think timer tracking is a core part of BRD's gameplay.

It was, definitely. As it's been reduced from 28% of uptime to 5.5% of uptime and had all of its interacting systems removed, though... I struggle to say it is now. I wouldn't be surprised if they looked at the songs and said "Well, these are 45s, too, so why the redundancy?" and gave Bard DoTs the mercy blow.

At most I think its dots will, and should, be consolidated to just Caustic Bite with some kind of proc interaction with Sidewinder (pair up the poison, and snake themed attacks).

That wouldn't be bad. Maybe Sidewinder duplicates a strike on every enemy afflicted with Caustic Bite (including the main target) and generates Repertoire for each enemy hit, or what-have-you. Whatever gives a bit more flair and a tiny bit more cognitive load without feeling merely like extra obligatory chore. That said...

Iron Jaws should be replaced with something else as well (AOE Caustic Bite perhaps)

I've never understood the idea of a spammable AoE DoT that replaces the ST version. If it has a relevant resource cost the likes of Bane vs. Fester then there's some interaction, thankfully -- though even then it'd really just become obligatory for trash and unused outside of it (a la Senei/Guren or Xeno/Foul) -- but if it's spammable, then you're just using up a button on an infrequent action just because the total base potency of the ST variant is superior until X targets and inferior thereafter (see Shadow of Death/Whorl of Death).

Hot Take Spitball:

Put the "Bite"/"Jaw" actions (each now with additional utility but shorter DoT durations) --and at least one other/new GCD-- on a shared "Hunter's Quiver" charge system, recharging over maybe every... 15 seconds or so... and by certain other chance-based means (including nodes appearing under slain enemies you previously afflicted or on terrain between you and the boss after certain health thresholds). For instance...

• Caustic Bite might additionally increase all potencies taken by the target by some small amount, synergetic with multi-hit and frequent attacks;
• Stormbite might increase allied movement speed for 2 seconds whenever they pass near its victim or the arrow's path taken from its caster to its target and allow certain oGCDs to ricochet to nearby enemies for partial damage;
• Iron Jaws might consume both instantly for proportionate burst effect (mostly utility-focused outside of milking the end of a damage window), with partial effect to DoTs in mirrored arcs towards the target for a big ole' boom;
• Ladonbite would now be a short-DoT option for burst AoE, akin to a denser and more frequently available Bioblaster, rather than outright replacing Quick Nock -OR- renamed slightly; and
• Shadowbite would, idk, be renamed to Shadowfall, just so the "Bite" skills are consistently charge-spending specialty ammo.

[Carighan]

Yeah I really don't feel removing DoTs (and timers to track) is a meaningful improvement. Rather if anything the issues with the current design of the archer-part hint towards this having become too little of the gameplay.

Maybe reworking the combat system to be all about tracking timers for skills that little if any inherent CD but no use being prematuraly re-applied is the way to go? As in, have 2-4 DoTs/Debuffs and 2-3 selfbuffs and it's about not needlessly refreshing these but also not letting them drop or conflict?

If then the issue becomes that this "randomness" that is Dancer's procs and Simon Says and Bard's procs (as much as you can still call them random, tbh) is meant to be a key aspect of PRanged gameplay, then make these effects have semi-random durations, tbh. That'd be an interesting thing anyways: On application, you can see the duration you rolled, so in theory you always know 20-30s in advance what needs to be done. Yet you can also naturally never have the boring super-staticy rotation that plagues most jobs in this game, since well, durations and hence alignment or misalignment of durations is utterly random.