FFXIV population decline continues

[Evergrey]

It sounds like there is a problem with the definition of "Hardcore" and "Casual" which people self identify with.

To me, "Hardcore" are the players who engage with Savage/Ult/Ex and Ranked CC.
To me, "Casuals" are the players who do not engage with any higher difficulty content. These are the roulette players. These are the Roleplayers. These are the crafters.

The problem is with the content that has come out in Dawntrail so far. Casuals have been fed Porridge, while Hardcore players have been fed Prime rib.

Square Enix has not released any midcore content to bring these two communities together. Instead, they've released rewards, which appeal to Casual players, behind Harder difficulty content. (Which casual players don't enjoy, for a variety of reasons.) Normally, this would be fine if there were other rewards and goals for them to be working towards. There isn't however as of 7.1. This means, that casual players who want the new hairstyles, mounts, accessories, and anything else they increasingly have been locking behind harder content, have to clear the harder content that they don't enjoy, or for any reason of your choosing, they can't clear. That puts them in conflict with the Hardcore community who doesn't want to be teaching people the basics of raiding, doesn't want to teach people strategies, and have to carry in their words "Dead weight" through content. It's only natural they'll clash.

But why is it the responsibility of the "hardcore community" to teach them?
Can't people just look up the information themselves?
When I spent my time (and only time) savage raiding in FFXIV in Endwalker I looked up guides myself and then joined practice groups.
No one taught me anything and I managed to clear 5 out of the 12 Savage raids. 4 of them through Party Finder groups with zero vocal communication.
And I am very much a casual player as I normally pretty much just do a couple of Roulettes and then I feel done for the day.

[Archeron]

But why is it the responsibility of the "hardcore community" to teach them?
Can't people just look up the information themselves?
When I spent my time (and only time) savage raiding in FFXIV in Endwalker I looked up guides myself and then joined practice groups.
No one taught me anything and I managed to clear 5 out of the 12 Savage raids. 4 of them through Party Finder groups with zero vocal communication.
And I am very much a casual player as I normally pretty much just do a couple of Roulettes and then I feel done for the day.

Where did I say it was the "Hardcore" players responsibility? You've missed the entire point of this post.

Casual players do not want to do Hardcore content. They have no other content to do at the moment. So they're queueing into Hardcore duties, with the hardcore audience, who is forced to deal with these inexperienced casual players who do not want to even be there in the first place. The casuals don't want to be there, The hardcore players don't want them there. That is why there is constantly people fighting over "That duty is too hard!" "This duty is too easy! Make it harder!" with both sides dismissing each other, and having PF wars while the real problem has always been the lack of content and alternative rewards for casuals to go after that doesn't require them to raid hardcore content.

In Endwalker, they had Island Sanctuary. They had Variant dungeons. When casuals demanded the Axolotl mount - they deserved to be clowned on.
In Dawntrail, they have a single beast tribe, while Hardcore players have A savage tier, An ultimate, Chaotic raid, and content has been increasingly made difficult in their favor, and more rewards are gated behind their content.

[BigCheez]

Where did I say it was the "Hardcore" players responsibility? You've missed the entire point of this post.

Casual players do not want to do Hardcore content. They have no other content to do at the moment. So they're queueing into Hardcore duties, with the hardcore audience, who is forced to deal with these inexperienced casual players who do not want to even be there in the first place. The casuals don't want to be there, The hardcore players don't want them there. That is why there is constantly people fighting over "That duty is too hard!" "This duty is too easy! Make it harder!" with both sides dismissing each other, and having PF wars while the real problem has always been the lack of content and alternative rewards for casuals to go after that doesn't require them to raid hardcore content.

In Endwalker, they had Island Sanctuary. They had Variant dungeons. When casuals demanded the Axolotl mount - they deserved to be clowned on.
In Dawntrail, they have a single beast tribe, while Hardcore players have A savage tier, An ultimate, Chaotic raid, and content has been increasingly made difficult in their favor, and more rewards are gated behind their content.

So people who don't want to do chaotic are joining PFs for chaotic and that's somehow someone else's fault?

I completely understand that there's a huge lack of casual content in the game at the minute but queuing into hard content and complaining that it's hard and you don't want to be there is wild.

[Evergrey]

Where did I say it was the "Hardcore" players responsibility? You've missed the entire point of this post.

Casual players do not want to do Hardcore content. They have no other content to do at the moment. So they're queueing into Hardcore duties, with the hardcore audience, who is forced to deal with these inexperienced casual players who do not want to even be there in the first place. The casuals don't want to be there, The hardcore players don't want them there. That is why there is constantly people fighting over "That duty is too hard!" "This duty is too easy! Make it harder!" with both sides dismissing each other, and having PF wars while the real problem has always been the lack of content and alternative rewards for casuals to go after that doesn't require them to raid hardcore content.

In Endwalker, they had Island Sanctuary. They had Variant dungeons. When casuals demanded the Axolotl mount - they deserved to be clowned on.
In Dawntrail, they have a single beast tribe, while Hardcore players have A savage tier, An ultimate, Chaotic raid, and content has been increasingly made difficult in their favor, and more rewards are gated behind their content.

Well you didn't use the word "responsibility" per say, but you did say "That puts them in conflict with the Hardcore community who doesn't want to be teaching people the basics of raiding, doesn't want to teach people strategies, and have to carry in their words "Dead weight" through content."
If people don't want to teach others they're not wrong to do so.
So if people get upset that others won't teach them it's they themselves that expect others to satisfy their needs.
It's like people who ask a question and they get a "no" for an answer and then gets upset that they didn't get a "yes".

[Ayan_Calvesse]

Admittedly I don't consider myself hardcore. I'm pretty midcore - I try stuff and try to do and succeed at the stuff I like...pass on the stuff I don't and to date there is lots of stuff I haven't done; and I've been here since the beginning. I think something of an actual release schedule would do wonders for FFXIV mind you as I hate the feast or famine patches; if you knew that in 3 months that thing you wanted was in - you could look forward to it; SE however tends to be somewhat nebulous with their patching and more and more seems to avoid making commitments to patch information releases. I don't know how big the FF XIV development team is; but its not big enough.

I recently took a few peeks at the FF XIV mobile beta and noticed how another company has made some really nice QoL changes such as the glamour system and the UI clean up; so we know more is possible with less; so with more; more should also be possible. I do think the casual v hardcore notion often overlooks however what gets added for their respective groups. Alliance raids are not for "the hardcore", new glams and society quests are not for "the hardcore" and arguably extremes are not for "the hardcore" because generally the use of these things means little to the hardcore by the time they come out.

[Jeeqbit]

The issue is really with saying there is only casual and hardcore.

There are people who want to invest the amount of time playing that, say, raid proggers do. Let's say for instance that this is 3 days a week for 2 hours at a time. They want the content to be varied and make their heart race. But they don't want to deal with PF, markers, strategies, party refills every 3 pulls.

The way the content is designed it's either something you can kill blindfolded (not even kidding in a lot of cases) or it involves PF, markers, strats, with not much between that.

Personally, this does not bother me, but the sort of difficulty level and progression we got with Eureka and Bozja fights was the best middle ground they've ever done and the social aspect was really good, bringing together different types of players. (Oh and hunts are really good too, their mechanics are similarly as devastating and fun, but we only get those at the start of the expansion)

[Archeron]

Well you didn't use the word "responsibility" per say, but you did say "That puts them in conflict with the Hardcore community who doesn't want to be teaching people the basics of raiding, doesn't want to teach people strategies, and have to carry in their words "Dead weight" through content."
If people don't want to teach others they're not wrong to do so.
So if people get upset that others won't teach them it's they themselves that expect others to satisfy their needs.
It's like people who ask a question and they get a "no" for an answer and then gets upset that they didn't get a "yes".

Reading comprehension is seriously lacking here.

I am not asking hardcore players to be "Babysitters". I am pointing out the WHOLE REASON these two communities are fighting. Neither of them are wrong.

Casuals have nothing to do. The rewards they want are gated behind Hardcore content. Are they wrong? No. Does that mean they should be joining duties they don't want to participate? No.
Hardcore players are fed up with dead weight entering their duties and trials and being forced to either carry their dead weight, or be called out for being toxic when they don't put up with it. Are they wrong? No. Should they being toxic towards casual players? No.

There is no alternative for casuals at the moment. They are being funneled into doing Hardcore content. Give them something to do, and they'll stop joining your duties and demanding content be made "Easier".

[Lilapop]

being forced to either carry their dead weight, or be called out for being toxic when they don't put up with it.

They're not forced to carry or be called out. They can simply either leave or boot the casual. It isn't "well it HAS to be carry or call out."

[Evergrey]

Reading comprehension is seriously lacking here.

I am not asking hardcore players to be "Babysitters". I am pointing out the WHOLE REASON these two communities are fighting. Neither of them are wrong.

Casuals have nothing to do. The rewards they want are gated behind Hardcore content. Are they wrong? No. Does that mean they should be joining duties they don't want to participate? No.
Hardcore players are fed up with dead weight entering their duties and trials and being forced to either carry their dead weight, or be called out for being toxic when they don't put up with it. Are they wrong? No. Should they being toxic towards casual players? No.

There is no alternative for casuals at the moment. They are being funneled into doing Hardcore content. Give them something to do, and they'll stop joining your duties and demanding content be made "Easier".

There's obviously a lack of content to do, yes.
But if casuals that have nothing to do decides to try out the "hardcore" content they probably should do so by joining groups specifically targeted to players trying to learn, that needs the time and patience to do so.
If they do they won't bother the "hardcore community" and there would be no fight between both communities.
It is when people who join a group dedicated to a specific part they aren't ready to when it can become an issue where they can become a "deadweight".
And if there are still people complaining in a practice group chances are high that they aren't hardcore players.
Practice groups are more often than not created by other casual/mid-core players trying to learn.


Edit:

I should also point out that the timeframe is important to this.
If a raid is new obviously there will be hardcore players mixed in since even they have to start somewhere and you'll run into them more often.
But after some time more and more of them will have progressed, leaving practice groups more compiled with non-hardcore players.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Why is there always a Hardcore VS Casual Discussion which even goes the wrong way because i got the feeling people think "raiding" is hardcore, no it isnt, i raid too and im a casual nothing more.

The problem is that we use the terms casual and hardcore for two different scales: difficulty of content and total time invested. So you are likely a casual player (showing up only for raid nights) who does hardcore content (progression raids). Many players are the inverse of that: hardcore players (multiple hours a day) who do casual content (roulettes, crafting, etc.).