We are missing Content between Normal and Extreme. Wrong Audience for Chaotic

[Havenchild]

I only did up to the start of the tile phase so far, but it seems like it could be done casually up to there at least, once people are used to the mechanics (which only takes a few hours of prog).

Maybe reducing the reliance on eachother a bit (so a few people can mess up at a given time) would help. If it is to be midcore content, it should still have people rely on eachother in a phase like that, just with room for a small percentage of people to mess it up and survive. Because they nailed that with the pads against thunder god before the nerf in my opinion.

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

[Jeeqbit]

You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error.

I really don't know why people are complaining then, because the rest of the fight other than that seemed like it could be managed because I got through to tile phase, sometimes pretty smoothly in the first few hours of release... before guides, before anything.

The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

Unfortunately true.

[Mawlzy]

I really don't know why people are complaining then, because the rest of the fight other than that seemed like it could be managed because I got through to tile phase, sometimes pretty smoothly in the first few hours of release... before guides, before anything.
Unfortunately true.

Blaming players for finding the game lacking is the last stage before MMOs sunset.

[Jeeqbit]

Blaming players for finding the game lacking is the last stage before MMOs sunset.

I wasn't blaming players for finding the game lacking, but rather for wanting all content to be unreasonably easy. If people spend the same amount of effort trying to clear the fight as they do complaining about it, they might clear it.

And yes, I understand that some people can't do certain content in the game due to limitations. And maybe the content isn't for them if that's the case. I'm talking about people who don't have such limits but just immediately come to the forums and say it's clique content without really giving it a good try.

It happened with Eureka where, just because it took NMs a little bit of time to spawn, they wanted them to spawn instantly resulting in Bozja's Skirmishes which spawn instantly one after the other. People just have no patience for things taking time and want everything instantly (then subsequently complain there's no content and they are bored). Can't have it both ways.

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on how big the gap between current normal raids and extremes is.

I don't think Extreme difficulty is the issue. I think the issue is the culture of using Party Finder for it instead of a direct queue makes it feel more difficult than it is, which has only been a problem in western regions, because they queue in the JP region.

When I get Extremes in Mentor Roulette for example - and this is with loads of sprouts - I usually teach the fight and we clear it. 99% of Extremes I've got in Mentor Roulette have been a clear, including Tsukuyomi, Thordan, Ultima's Bane, Ramuh, and countless Great Hunt Ex. Granted this is with gear growth and occasionally Echo stacks, but the same thing can happen with current extremes (gear growth) and it's not that long before they add Echo stacks anyway.

Like everything, Chaotic will probably feel a lot easier as time goes on.

Going off of pure difficulty I would absolutely put it on par with normal raids, it was incredibly easy.

BA was ridiculously easy when I did it. All the fights before Ozma felt easier than Sastasha. And Ozma's mechanics are mostly wholesale taken from the version in Weeping City which was also never that hard but sometimes took a few pulls. Except of course it's more punishing (more likely to kill, harder to get a rez and can eject you from the instance).

But the rez and eject gimmicks, and "get enough people" gimmicks, make it useful to have a discord for it. But the bigger reason discords had to pick it up was deciding portals. Ironically, coordinating portal entry is the main "coordination" needed.

[Mawlzy]

And yes, I understand that some people can't do certain content in the game due to limitations. And maybe the content isn't for them if that's the case. I'm talking about people who don't have such limits but just immediately come to the forums and say it's clique content without really giving it a good try.

I don't even think it's a question of can't do certain content, although that doubtless comes into play. The issue is that there are many different ways to play FF14, and basically only one niche way involving significant time planning and commitment, which most people simply choose not to do, is being addressed by the bulk of material released in 7.x.

I'm starting to get the feeling SQEX would happily jettison 80% of their players, scale back the cost of producing 14, and turn it into a raiding game. Like the DT story doesn't exactly suggest commitment to a "story-driven MMO," we know VAs and animation are expensive, and the content release makes it pretty clear which portion of the customer base is valued.

Their decision. Maybe it makes financial sense.

[AllenThyl]

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

The last two sentences cannot be stressed enough. This raid exposes a few problematic behaviors that the community at large has simply normalized, but shouldn't have. Both those who engage in high-end duties regularly, and those who don't. The second group has being shown that they have 0 clue how high-end duties work, likely never stepped foot in it, yet the rhetoric is one of incredible entitlement. And that isn't even about the rewards, just the very fact how much complaining was going on because there were some (emphasis, SOME!) groups that had an ilvl requirement higher than the min ilvl requirement of the duty. "Gatekeeping", "Exclusions", "hating on those they deem lesser", all terms that were thrown around in these forums.

The high-end duty participants on the other hand have clearly demonstrated how low their actual skill level is. What happens in PF even for savage, is that most people are essentially fishing for a clear, i.e. hope that the one pattern that they can actually do most (70%) of the time comes up. Because "a clear is a clear", so it only matters once per week to get it done. Whether it's 30 mins or 5 hours. This has always been the problem for reclears, but it's now amplified with three times that amount of people. Further, this whole body check tower argument is so flawed, "only one person dead wipes the raid". No, one tower does not wipe the raid, and 2nd, why is anyone who is in a kill / clear / farm party even dead at that point? The towers are a body check for correctly executing the previous mechanic, people need to actually learn the previous mechanic! Not 75% of the time, 99%! The add is indicating the mechanic slowly, with enough time to preposition (which could also be used for after the swaps, but can't expect people to think on feet, right?). One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds to concentrate on the movement, but nooooooooooooooo, it's the "mechanic that is hard".

The raid also showed that the main mode of operation for the largest part of the raiding community is "following the guide", instead of understanding the fight / mechanics and why the solution in the guide is the solution to the mechanic. If the swaps are a bit scuffed and 3 melees find themselves on one of the platforms, people will more likely than not overlap on the melee positions instead of going to one of the ranged position because "that's what it says in the guide".

[Lilapop]

snip

Good grief. Are you familiar with the saying "mileage may vary"? Just because you don't see one tower wiping the raid doesn't mean the people who have seen it are exaggerating. You're not in every run to ever be ran, you cannot speak for everyone. Why is anyone dead in a party that's trying to clear? Do you actually want a full list of reasons or is that rhetorical? One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds..., raiders who don't make it their life, people who are trying to get into raiding, and people who simply don't raid hear about how big of a deal uptime is, and how important it is to keep uptime up as well as "always" be casting. So, which is it? Are you going to complain about people for casting too much? Or when they stop to actually do the mechanic are you going to complain because they stopped casting?

Yes. "Following the guide". The main mode of the raiding community, the main mode endorsed by the raiding community, the main mode I have seen shoved down my raiding friend's throats, new raider's throats, and people who refuse to raid without a guide. Typically, according to the typical raid, you watch the guide, you understand the guide, that's all that is required other than proper gear and food. What's your point? Why mention this? Complaining to complain? If you actually took a moment to think through anything you said you would realize that: firstly, none of this is new. Secondly, you're not actually saying anything at all.

[AllenThyl]

Good grief. Are you familiar with the saying "mileage may vary"? Just because you don't see one tower wiping the raid doesn't mean the people who have seen it are exaggerating.

A single exploding tower does not deal enough damage to just outright wipe everyone. Which is in stark contrast to some towers in savage fights, which in fact do immediately wipe the raid, because they explode for <max damage number>, cannot be mitigated and go through invuln. People dying to a single tower means they were too low on health. As I said, the towers are a check for properly executing the previous mechanic. That includes mitigating and healing the phase transition raidwide as well as the one 15 seconds after that, and the following add mechanic.

You're not in every run to ever be ran, you cannot speak for everyone. Why is anyone dead in a party that's trying to clear? Do you actually want a full list of reasons or is that rhetorical?

The Chaotic Alliance Raid is a pretty difficult combat duty. The boss is there to kill all the players. Apart from disconnects, dead people are the result purely of failed mechanics on the player side. The boss doesn't have a "randomly kill someone" mechanic when every mechanic was properly executed. If someone has connection problems, then they need to abstain from joining a duty that requires them to have a stable connection. If someone cannot reliably do a mechanic, they need to join a practice party and practice this one mechanic. All the excuses you could list are just that, excuses. Again, this is hard combat content. Successful completion of said duty requires successfully resolving all mechanics until the boss hp drops to 0. Not half of them, or a third, or 4/5th, or any of that. All of them. Every single attempt.

One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds..., raiders who don't make it their life, people who are trying to get into raiding, and people who simply don't raid hear about how big of a deal uptime is, and how important it is to keep uptime up as well as "always" be casting. So, which is it? Are you going to complain about people for casting too much? Or when they stop to actually do the mechanic are you going to complain because they stopped casting?

DPS optimization only matter if the mechanics can be correctly resolved and the raid ends because of enrage. Uptime means nothing if the raid is dead. There is no contradiction here. That's why people greeding during prog is so annoying. Melees have to do brambles and can at best do their ranged pewpew, but so what? That's what's required to correctly solve the mechanics, so that's what needs to be done. A single person dying is more of a dps loss than if some people on the platform don't dps for 4 gcds. I mean, do you even raid, or are you just here to stir the pot? Because this all sounds like the blind talking about colors.

Yes. "Following the guide". The main mode of the raiding community, the main mode endorsed by the raiding community, the main mode I have seen shoved down my raiding friend's throats, new raider's throats, and people who refuse to raid without a guide. Typically, according to the typical raid, you watch the guide, you understand the guide, that's all that is required other than proper gear and food. What's your point? Why mention this? Complaining to complain? If you actually took a moment to think through anything you said you would realize that: firstly, none of this is new. Secondly, you're not actually saying anything at all.

The question is more, what are YOU even here for? Judging by your words, you don't raid, so why are you talking about the raiding culture as if you actually know what's going on? Or are suffering from it? You don't have to jump into the fray and fight for non-existent people just to make yourself feel better.
Everyone is free to make their own parties. If a party says "we are doing plan A", then the people who join should then follow plan A. If someone doesn't want to do plan A, don't join that particular party. The same goes for prog point. Being honest about one's own progression and skill doesn't get anyone in trouble. What does cause friction, is people joining a kill party, but failing repeatedly on mechanics in phase 2. That's what "prog lying" means. That's what "entitlement" looks like. And that's precisely what this encounter has exposed of the community.

[Ravennes]

The question is more, what are YOU even here for? Judging by your words, you don't raid, so why are you talking about the raiding culture as if you actually know what's going on? Or are suffering from it? You don't have to jump into the fray and fight for non-existent people just to make yourself feel better.
Everyone is free to make their own parties. If a party says "we are doing plan A", then the people who join should then follow plan A. If someone doesn't want to do plan A, don't join that particular party. The same goes for prog point. Being honest about one's own progression and skill doesn't get anyone in trouble. What does cause friction, is people joining a kill party, but failing repeatedly on mechanics in phase 2. That's what "prog lying" means. That's what "entitlement" looks like. And that's precisely what this encounter has exposed of the community.

i fully agree with that, the community is what makes this fight hard and unbearable,
Sad to say... prog lying only gives benefits and never gets punished enough,
prog lying will give you further insight on the run... meaning you can learn faster and past your point at the expense of honest people's time..
yet those who are honest and join practice parties get absolutely overwhelmed with wipe after wipe after wipe... and even those people have literally said to me... "idc anymore... i just want to clear" and they too join kill parties..
this raid Truly exposed the community for how it is when playing together, a driving dumpster fire heading towards a cliff edge.

i think the devs will need to actually head on address this, and figure out a way to ... prevent this, personally unsure what to do.. but i take it devs are experts on the community and gaming so they can figure something out right?
i fear for the next choatic... it will probably be a kick fest like FRU in PF xD

[Gurgeh]

i
i think the devs will need to actually head on address this, and figure out a way to ... prevent this, personally unsure what to do.. but i take it devs are experts on the community and gaming so they can figure something out right?
i fear for the next choatic... it will probably be a kick fest like FRU in PF xD

Not a dev. But this isn't really a technical problem unless you say we'll everything is technical because you need to code it.

But the only thing to do is remove trust as element, which reduced down means to move it from client to server.
Every instance has flags. Your character gets that flag for reaching that point, or seeing that mechanic. Now you have encode all those flags for all those instances for everyone's characters. Now you select in pf which mechs for an instance a char must have seen. 'asking the server to award points for competency or style is too much'. Those flags though are a lot or too much extra data per char. Or it's not trivial anyway.

I think the much simpler solution is to have the game store how many times you've cleared. Actually this is not necessary. You could just say 'only players with 30 totems in their inventory. Or 'only players with 30 demimateria in their inventory'
That will greatly reduce getting people who got their completed flag via a KFF.
I dint think people should ever join KFFs.
Be as greedy as you like, but if you ask for people with 98 totems, it might take you a while to fill.
The technical benefit, is you don't add any data to the character beyond what's already there.
You could even make it really toxic and say WARs need 30 tokens, DRKs needs 60!

I'm a grey parser (when I've looked at other people's logs) and I wouldn't object to this. It would mean I can join a party without feeling guilty, which at the moment just stops me joining. So I get my clear, don't hope for 99, and at present just unsub, because Allen doesn't want to 'play' with me and I don't want to deal with an Allen.