Please help me understand why/how Chaotic one last time? (because I'm done)

[Lauwen]

All of these issues are exacerbated by people not necessarily being the most truthful or up-front about their prog-point, so you end up with people that may not necessarily understand the fight in its entirety joining a kill party, when in reality they may still only be halfway through the fight, and in some instances they may only be doing this to skip being grouped with people that are for eternity wiping on body-checks.

Prog liars really stand out in this content - it's always been a thing over the years, like someone joining a Titan EX kill back in ARR, but they've never seen the adds for example, with 8 people you can more easily tell if someone is telling a lie, or they just get lucky and weasel their way through. In this content, given the bonus structure, we're seeing a lot of parties who have cleared accepting P3/enrage players - I don't believe most of the people who join are at enrage prog point, they are hoping for a carry, maybe through either thinking "it's a 24 man, I can just coast through" or just pure ignorance on what the fight actually is.

[Voidmage]

Prog liars really stand out in this content - it's always been a thing over the years, like someone joining a Titan EX kill back in ARR, but they've never seen the adds for example, with 8 people you can more easily tell if someone is telling a lie, or they just get lucky and weasel their way through. In this content, given the bonus structure, we're seeing a lot of parties who have cleared accepting P3/enrage players - I don't believe most of the people who join are at enrage prog point, they are hoping for a carry, maybe through either thinking "it's a 24 man, I can just coast through" or just pure ignorance on what the fight actually is.

I agree that prog liars are a big problem here and I think many just do it because they are getting tired of this content and wiping again and again.

BUT

Them being such a huge problem just tells that the difficulty is way overtuned no matter what some may think. For originally being targeted at Ex difficulty SOME prog liars shouldn't be such a huge problem or at worst result in a hard dps check.
Even in some savage fights you can not know what to do after a specific point and yet clear easily.
The other thing is that not everyone is a prog liar just because they mess up sometimes. The mechanics are easy in a vacuum but there so damn many back to back with little room for failure that it is natural that people screw up even those who cleared.

The worst of all is that I start to see toxity forming in PF like... really bad ones to a point where I am short of not joining clear groups anymore because prog parties are just way more chill.

[Kuroka]

The worst of all is that I start to see toxity forming in PF like... really bad ones to a point where I am short of not joining clear groups anymore because prog parties are just way more chill.

This so much... and the 5-15 different parties for basically the same thing, spreading much needed players even thinner... then you wait 30+ min in PF to the point you basically do a few pulls and then gotta go or someone has to leave.

I legit rather play something else when im knowing i got less then 2-3 hours time, because im not gonna waste half of it waiting...

• Maybe got through earlier phases consistently because they had someone carrying them hard ie. a healer spamming shields, or a tank 100% managing the aggro for a co-tank with provoke/shirk/shared mit and adjusting for them because they don't know what provoke/shirk/mit is (I've had to do this for people before).

I see people who join when they aren't ready as just not very considerate.

I did spam so many shields yesterday lol

But this is so true - ive had tanks with 6-7 lightning stacks not realizing they might should switch, with neither of them realizing. Dude its lv 100. Even if you dont tank much, you should have that basic idea.

[Jeeqbit]

But this is so true - ive had tanks with 6-7 lightning stacks not realizing they might should switch, with neither of them realizing. Dude its lv 100. Even if you dont tank much, you should have that basic idea.

To be fair, there are a lot of other mechanics going on while those are building. Sometimes it gets messed up in there if another tanks dies and the boss begins adding more stacks to you.

But it's true generally you could have a healer just carrying with Esuna for Doom, shields, etc. And then they wonder why they can't get far in the next party.

[Jeeqbit]

Why did they do this?

They acknowledged that in Endwalker, a lot of it was solo content. They also acknowledged that large-scale content such as Field Operations, BA and DRS were still active. They also had a lot of criticism that Endwalker alliance raids were too easy.

So you see, they knocked 3 heads with one stone:

• 24 people is a lot more social.
• It adds a bit more variety than just BA and DRS in terms of large-scale raids that involve coordination or callouts, in addition to whatever we get with the Field Operations.
• It's more challenging than alliance raids.

Now you might wonder: why not just make regular alliance raids more challenging?

They answered this about a week ago. They said a lot of people want to return the difficulty to Weeping City or Ivalice level difficulty (I agree), but they said that if they made mechanics like that now, players would find them easy because they are better at the game now, so they would actually have to make it a lot harder than those raids. If they make them harder, casual players will find them too difficult.

They have still tried to make the Dawntrail alliance raids harder or have fresh mechanic ideas, but they wanted to make a version that would satisfy those who didn't want them to hold back so much.

I gather they put Ultimate BiS gear in here is that right?

They put gear on par with the item level of Savage. If you just do Ultimate with Savage gear you'll be fine. How do I know? Because people already have.

They just won't tolerate wasting a second of their time. I don't blame them. I expect its 'necessary'.

That's a description that applies to a lot of veteran players in any MMORPG, not just Ultimate raiders. They know the most efficient way to do everything. Therefore, they do it the most efficient way. Which sometimes makes them obnoxious to be around because newer players don't know the most efficient ways yet.

That's why you have to remind yourself that they're newer and just want to take their time and accept it (this is something I learned before even playing this game). Veteran players of any MMORPG need to remind themselves to let new players just do it in an inefficient way, because they're trying to absorb the first time experience, not farm it in the most efficient way possible.

[Valence]

They also had a lot of criticism that Endwalker alliance raids were too easy.

They have still tried to make the Dawntrail alliance raids harder or have fresh mechanic ideas, but they wanted to make a version that would satisfy those who didn't want them to hold back so much.

They tried so much that Jeuno isn't much harder if at all (wait to see how it's gonna feel to run it in 7.5... by the way even at release we already skipped that Doom cast from the last boss and I've seen it only exactly once in my life so far)...
Which leads us to...

They answered this about a week ago. They said a lot of people want to return the difficulty to Weeping City or Ivalice level difficulty (I agree), but they said that if they made mechanics like that now, players would find them easy because they are better at the game now, so they would actually have to make it a lot harder than those raids. If they make them harder, casual players will find them too difficult.

...The change of paradigm. Everything is more binary and individualistic than ever. What wiped alliances in Ivalice and whatnot was just not people being worse, it was also that you had something else to juggle with next to the encounter, so of course older content is going to seem piss easy by now.

[*]24 people is a lot more social.

Besides the usual limited talk of getting into PF, telling you take R1 or M2 or whatever position, and then going at it, wiping, and seeing people mald more than usual, I guess it's more social due to the salt?

[Jeeqbit]

They tried so much that Jeuno isn't much harder if at all (wait to see how it's gonna feel to run it in 7.5...

Well it isn't harder to me. But it's at least done a different approach with the mechanics which seems to wipe out whole alliances occasionally. Which is something I at least want to see from such a raid. And of course you're right that in 7.5 it will be like Labyrinth or Void Ark. An actual striking dummy because they don't tier sync it.

by the way even at release we already skipped that Doom cast from the last boss

It has a Doom cast?

The change of paradigm. Everything is more binary and individualistic than ever. What wiped alliances in Ivalice and whatnot was just not people being worse, it was also that you had something else to juggle with next to the encounter

I agree because rotations were more punishing before with factors like ranged attacks breaking combos, combos expiring if not continued for a few seconds and also the better telegraphs are a factor that makes things easier now.

Although I do think some of the mechanics from the past area easier purely because they added them to dungeons in a lighter form, so that now your average MSQ player is used to them if they see them in a raid. Hall of the Novice is probably another factor as well.

There was also just more responsibility in those raids that they seem unwilling to return to in the casual version of Alliance Raids so far, such as placing things permanently (like webs), needing to separate bosses to prevent them tethering, a majority of people needing to be on pads (people complain about towers in the Chaos raid, but it worked in the unnerfed Thunder God fight by only needing to be done by 60% of players).

Sure people got "stuck" on Ozma and Thunder God in past alliance raids, but I don't see a problem with this at all because they try again and eventually beat it, or some alliances would clear at least. It's only a problem if hardly anyone is clearing. When they were current, I hardly saw any actual abandons - rather, when the person complaining we weren't good left and was replaced, we would suddenly clear it.

It's ironic how that works. Whenever the person complaining the alliance is bad got replaced, suddenly it was a clear.

I guess it's more social due to the salt?

There is also an element of emotional communication. We're all there doing it together, communicating with character movements or macros as well. Which is in contrast to, say, Island Sanctuary where you are completely alone and don't even have so much as that.

[Ravennes]

Well it isn't harder to me. But it's at least done a different approach with the mechanics which seems to wipe out whole alliances occasionally. Which is something I at least want to see from such a raid. And of course you're right that in 7.5 it will be like Labyrinth or Void Ark. An actual striking dummy because they don't tier sync it.
It has a Doom cast?
I agree because rotations were more punishing before with factors like ranged attacks breaking combos, combos expiring if not continued for a few seconds and also the better telegraphs are a factor that makes things easier now.

Although I do think some of the mechanics from the past area easier purely because they added them to dungeons in a lighter form, so that now your average MSQ player is used to them if they see them in a raid. Hall of the Novice is probably another factor as well.

There was also just more responsibility in those raids that they seem unwilling to return to in the casual version of Alliance Raids so far, such as placing things permanently (like webs), needing to separate bosses to prevent them tethering, a majority of people needing to be on pads (people complain about towers in the Chaos raid, but it worked in the unnerfed Thunder God fight by only needing to be done by 60% of players).

Sure people got "stuck" on Ozma and Thunder God in past alliance raids, but I don't see a problem with this at all because they try again and eventually beat it, or some alliances would clear at least. It's only a problem if hardly anyone is clearing. When they were current, I hardly saw any actual abandons - rather, when the person complaining we weren't good left and was replaced, we would suddenly clear it.

It's ironic how that works. Whenever the person complaining the alliance is bad got replaced, suddenly it was a clear.
There is also an element of emotional communication. We're all there doing it together, communicating with character movements or macros as well. Which is in contrast to, say, Island Sanctuary where you are completely alone and don't even have so much as that.

i compleetly forgot island sanctuary existed... but i really don't wanna do Management roles inside a fantasy game xD

[Fawkes]

They tried so much that Jeuno isn't much harder if at all (wait to see how it's gonna feel to run it in 7.5... by the way even at release we already skipped that Doom cast from the last boss and I've seen it only exactly once in my life so far)...

It has a Doom cast?

No, it has an ability that's called like "Doom Arc", but it's just a heavy AoE bleed. I feel like it's meant more as a soft enrage than like a mechanic you're meant to deal with. It's nothing like skipping Nald'thal's scales, that'd be like skipping the part where he puts his clothes on.

[Jeeqbit]

No, it has an ability that's called like "Doom Arc", but it's just a heavy AoE bleed. I feel like it's meant more as a soft enrage than like a mechanic you're meant to deal with.

Oh that. I have seen that often. The way it casts makes you wonder if it is an enrage, but it turns out it's just trolling and it's a little bleed. It's such a troll cast.