Why pvp is succesful and pve is getting stale

[IOwn92FCHouses]

Saying the weakest part of the game, Pvp, is "successful" is certainly a take. I'm guessing all those DRK using Salted Earth have given some people end stage Salt poisoning.

Pvp is boring and predictable. Once you understand how the Macro game works, every game is the same, with a bit of RNG on how players play depending on the situation (or if a couple of big names end up on your team/against you. Love you, Olivia.)

It's only exciting when you don't understand it, like exploring an open world game for the first time. Once you do, it's the same rock model, rotated slightly, the repeated over and over. (FF players and not understanding basic things about the game they play. What an iconic duo)

[Valence]

Tell me how the only pvp mode you play is frontlines without telling me you play frontlines... Pretty ironic to read that ff players don't understand the basic things that they play.

[Doki]

Tell me again what you're spending your successful pvp mode tokens on after multiple seasons of nothing new to spend them on.

[TakoyakiLala]

I can through fire balls as a Monk in PvP. Enough said.

[VeyaAkemi]

Tell me how the only pvp mode you play is frontlines without telling me you play frontlines... Pretty ironic to read that ff players don't understand the basic things that they play.

I tried Frontlines, don't like it, I keep doing it because of the rewards, and by now I am always there with the mindset of a retail employee, I tried Crystalline Conflict, hate it, I do it as a last resort if I slacked off on PvP stuff that badly for the current series, and doing it is a punishment for slacking off in my eyes, what is left to PvP? Rival Wings? I know people try to organize events for it, but finding one and being there at the right time seem like an awful lot of effort for a game mode I felt I disliked two styles of.

Frankly, that's also a me thing, I detest PvP, I never found a game where I found the PvP to be enjoyable, I will outright not play games that try to push me to PvP, it's a huge part of the reason I eventually quit GW2, building Legendaries requires you to do PvP for Gift of Battle, and even doing the bare minimum in WvW was a painful, anxious experience, eventually I couldn't keep pushing myself to do it and I had no reason to keep playing, meanwhile, other than a handful of cosmetic items, FFXIV never tried to intertwine PvE and PvP, and it's a huge part of why I enjoy it, and if there ever was a way to gain series progress without doing PvP(I am not saying there should be such a way, to be clear), I would never touch PvP again.

I frankly wouldn't want PvE to be like PvP, I don't enjoy utter chaos and unpredictability in gameplay, I enjoy some chaos, and mechanics that don't have an immediate solution out of 2 or 3 options at most would be enjoyable, actually let me try to use a metaphor for it... in current PvE, we know what the question will be and the answer, and people try to memorize the answer ahead of time, I want for us to know the question ahead of time, and be able to learn the process to which arrive at the answer ahead of time, and have to figure out the answer on the spot, meanwhile, PvP is the extreme end of it, where you don't know what the question will be until it is right in front of you, and I absolutely hate that.

[Mawlzy]

Tell me again what you're spending your successful pvp mode tokens on after multiple seasons of nothing new to spend them on.

I realize this is a minority reason for engagement in 14, but PvP enthusiasts play the PvP modes because they enjoy them, not because of rewards.

[Valence]

To be frank having read and participated into many threads with pvp afficionados actually telling me that most play for the rewards because "it's a MMO", there is a clear indicator that rewards are a big thing for this community. But I don't see what it has to do with the OP anyway..

I tried Frontlines, don't like it, I keep doing it because of the rewards, and by now I am always there with the mindset of a retail employee, I tried Crystalline Conflict, hate it, I do it as a last resort if I slacked off on PvP stuff that badly for the current series, and doing it is a punishment for slacking off in my eyes, what is left to PvP? Rival Wings? I know people try to organize events for it, but finding one and being there at the right time seem like an awful lot of effort for a game mode I felt I disliked two styles of.

Frankly, that's also a me thing, I detest PvP, I never found a game where I found the PvP to be enjoyable, I will outright not play games that try to push me to PvP, it's a huge part of the reason I eventually quit GW2, building Legendaries requires you to do PvP for Gift of Battle, and even doing the bare minimum in WvW was a painful, anxious experience, eventually I couldn't keep pushing myself to do it and I had no reason to keep playing, meanwhile, other than a handful of cosmetic items, FFXIV never tried to intertwine PvE and PvP, and it's a huge part of why I enjoy it, and if there ever was a way to gain series progress without doing PvP(I am not saying there should be such a way, to be clear), I would never touch PvP again.

I frankly wouldn't want PvE to be like PvP, I don't enjoy utter chaos and unpredictability in gameplay, I enjoy some chaos, and mechanics that don't have an immediate solution out of 2 or 3 options at most would be enjoyable, actually let me try to use a metaphor for it... in current PvE, we know what the question will be and the answer, and people try to memorize the answer ahead of time, I want for us to know the question ahead of time, and be able to learn the process to which arrive at the answer ahead of time, and have to figure out the answer on the spot, meanwhile, PvP is the extreme end of it, where you don't know what the question will be until it is right in front of you, and I absolutely hate that.

Not liking pvp is perfectly fair. You're actually part of a majority of players and a majority that tends to be a thing in most online games.
Personally I made this thread as someone that enjoys it yes, but the whole point of the OP was more focused on the actual mechanics and design behind both modes, and a lot less about the actual player versus player component, and used an analogy between how pvp evolved and managed to extirpate itself out of a moribund state of that held a lot of similarities to current pve.
The idea has never been to make pve like pvp, if just because it would lack the player versus player component anyway. I am not considering anything more than the metaphor you made. I was already perfectly happy with HW pve and it was relatively scripted already, but with a focus on different battle mechanics.

[BabyYoda]

The truth is FFXIV doesn't click the brain with its mechanics, or you can say it doesn't test human brain as much and keep depending on scripting 99% of the game.

PvP games arent scripted, they are crafted to test human brain in different situations, some games like Dark souls, Monster Hunter or any strategic game it will test you brain.

Weather with response time or with strategies that isn't scripted 100%.

PvP in ffxiv has more strategic aspect which keep your brain focused for hours.

I quit the game for long time but I couldnt handle a 30min run without getting bored or out of focus in PvE ffxiv.

When you hear a producer like Monster hunter producer talks about how he is making the game you will notice that he is talking about the player experience and immersion as the most important thing in the game.


In FFXIV when I click a spell I dont feel like that I am a mage who use this X magic it feels like I press a button then animation happens which is disconnected me from the game completely

[Bonoki]

Perhaps, but pvp also doesn't suffer constantly from negative feedback about job design, job identity, content staleness and samey experiences, which was the point of the OP.

This statement isn't true, but deep diving into it would slightly derail the topic.

[UkcsAlias]

It's only exciting when you don't understand it, like exploring an open world game for the first time. Once you do, it's the same rock model, rotated slightly, the repeated over and over. (FF players and not understanding basic things about the game they play. What an iconic duo)

And yet, counter strike still exists as a pvp game with a huge popularity while essentialy since 1.6 nothing has changed anymore except graphics.

Good PvP looks stale in its balance. But that is because real skill is often placed in nuances. Those nuances do keep things interesting in the top level, while at lower levels each fight differs enough that a 'play of the game' moment can realy give you that sense of achievement. Those 2 things are essential to PvP games.

PvE relies on randomness, or variants of the same content that is more difficult to often keep things interesting. And its where this game often lacks. 'min ilvl no echo' on trials should be a mode that does reward extra. And for dungeons, each version should get a sort of 'advanced' mode (involving things like permanent vuln stacks, and more strict ilvl restrictions - its not supposed to be savage, just normal mode but with heavier punishments), where the minion is locked behind. The standard and advanced version are then still suitable for the roulettes (advanced might be just mentor roulette), and maybe even a new advanced roulette.

There are ways to extend the current content, but due to power creep being too strong, the content becomes stale too fast.