Why pvp is succesful and pve is getting stale

[Valence]

This may sound like another of those threads saying "just copy pasta pvp into pve", but that's actually not it. I'm not here to tell you how great it would be that pve jobs would behave exactly like pvp jobs and same for encounters.

I want to go back onto the history of pvp, where the arena mode, the competitive mode that everything has always been designed and balanced around, was the Fold (which they removed very long ago) and the Feast, undergoing multiple partial redesigns. I want to bring forth the idea that this older model of arena pvp was more similar to pve than we may think it was.

For those unfamiliar with it, the Feast was a mode based around the trinity of healer/tank/dps with sub roles between melee and ranged. Every role had a precise job to do: Tanks were supposed to stun the target to burst precisely when the burst countdown ended and were also supposed to carry more medals gotten from kills (the more medals carried, the more damage taken), Healers were the pivotal point of teams and spammed heals to try and keep the current burst target alive, melee DPS were probably a third of the total burst DPS if not more and were the primary source of damage, and ranged DPS were silencers/debuffers supposed to specifically target the healer to disrupt their healing during burst while debuffing the burst target. The burst target was usually the melee DPS because killing tanks was the hardest thing to achieve, and killing healers, while juicy, was also a lot harder due to their purifying tools and heals. Ultimately if a team wasn't able to secure kills the winner was usually the one pushing the other to run out of resources (MP for the healer/individual elixirs), and the way to achieve this was securing the MP potions popping in the middle of the game.

As you can guess this made for an extremely scripted pvp that 99% of the time unfolded the exact same way with very little variations, and the little variations we had came from players being human beings and not a fully scripted boss like in pve. Now I'm not gonna explain what Crystalline Conflict is since the 6.1 rework, but at the risk of pissing off old Feast afficionados, I do think that what CC did exactly right beyond redefining truly flavorful unique job identities, was also to lower the skill floor dramatically and increase the skill ceiling pretty high as well. Feast had an incredibly high bar of entry for any new player: you had to setup macros specific to your role, you had to seriously learn how a game of feast was supposed to play because it was all but intuitive, you had to precisely know what you were supposed to do as the role you picked and execute it to the millimeter. But once this was done, you were already in Platinum/Diamond where not everything hinged on who had the better healer anymore, and you were already close to the skill ceiling if you were able to execute your script to a T in any circumstance. This is what made Feast closer to pve than what we think, and also focused to the extreme around burst cycles, like in pve.

Where I am going with this is that if pve could be finally be reworked finely like they did with pvp then perhaps that would be the shake up that the game actually needs. If anything, pve is also getting stale because it's been figured out since Endwalker. Nothing has changed, and compounded by a design that exclusively relies on brainless execution and memorization with less and less deviation from the script, then it's no wonder people are getting bored of it and complain whenever the devs introduce longer grinds, because they're not even here for the funsies anymore, just for the rewards, to get their clear, and move on.

Am I completely out of touch?

[Valence]

To add a little more to it, Feast had more clearly laid out and binary states: you picked up the medals or not, you picked up too many medals for your role or not, you didn't heal at the proper time or not, you weren't properly burst synced or not, you didn't cc the proper target when it mattered or not. It was very easy every time to see who fucked up and what costed the game, which lead to more toxicity than ever (and eventually lead the devs to turn off the party chat altogether and replace it with quickchat). In current pve, and put under the spotlight more than ever with the new Chaotic, it's very similar: you have binary states to fulfill as a player, either you succeed at the mechanic or wipe the party with the body check, or just derail the whole set up and wipe the party, and nobody can do anything about it, and it leads to frustrations on all sides.

The game needs to be made less systematic, less executable, less about raidplans and binary failure states, and more about organic designs. Is it a gargantuan task that also needs to account for not destroying every piece of older content already there? Yes it is, but if they can do it with a couple of hands for pvp under the span of a full expansion, then I'm confident that they can do it with pve as well

[ovIm]

The game needs to be made less systematic, less executable, less about raidplans and binary failure states, and more about organic designs. Is it a gargantuan task that also needs to account for not destroying every piece of older content already there? Yes it is, but if they can do it with a couple of hands for pvp under the span of a full expansion, then I'm confident that they can do it with pve as well

Fully agree with that sentiment, and good write up overall! Though I recon there are enough people that also like the on rails approach of the fights, especially now after years of this being "the way" FFXIV combat works. (Perhaps in the future, there is Savage for the tried raidplan approach, and, say, Criterion for a more organic design, so players can chose what kind of endgame they prefer?)

Makes me wonder how the new battle content approach in 7.2 is supposed to look, really.

[BabyYoda]

Game actually needs more than dungeons and raids, trails are actually raids but easier which is less and less creativity.

What I suggest is to lookup to what game modes that is popular and fun for people who likes RPG games,

Take for example battle royal, I know it is a pvp mode but you can make it non PvP that is competitive and fun to play.


What also FFXIV needs is dungeon style that is similar to games like dark and darker.. deep dungeons isn't close to it. Each time you queue in should feel like another adventure.

In conclusion:
The game require to be flexible and change the formula and things should be functionally different each time you queue for encounter.

Thank you

[Gurgeh]

...The game needs to be made less systematic, less executable, less about raidplans and binary failure states, and more about organic designs. Is it a gargantuan task that also needs to account for not destroying every piece of older content already there? Yes it is, but if they can do it with a couple of hands for pvp under the span of a full expansion, then I'm confident that they can do it with pve as well

I applaud your willingness to want something better. They could (unlimited resources). But the whole business of how the back end works that can be seen with the use of snapshots etc, I think the fights are the way they are because its 'very' hard, and 'limited' as to what you can do to create complexity, that has a learning/skill/mastery curve, with what the back end can (and can't) do. We already have lots of problems with mechanics that just don't seem to work well with just a mediocre ping or what appears to be the sever<>client not keeping up with each other. (for the starkest example of the limits of the engine I'm thinking of the fall guys events.) The game less about about playing the game you 'see', and but more about getting a "feel" for the second invisible parallel world of snapshots underneath.
I got pretty good at making sure I'm a least good enough for my corpse to make it look like I was where I was supposed to be. I was almost flawless at that. It almost became a minigame with every KO for me. ("Yuz! Nailed it! Not only am I where I needed to be, but I did it just the moment I needed to also die doing it! Too early and I'd still be alive, too late and I wouldn't be positioned 'perfectly' with everyone who's still alive. Howz that for Skillz!) Almost like slide casting, but for precision KOs.
I'm just not convinced that there is 'much' of texture and depth they can achieve with other 'game' styles. Is why so much (everything) is know the mechanic ahead of time, positioning you character ahead of time, wait for the mechanic to resolve (because the clients and servers always need some breathing time to catch up with each other. Quite a lot maybe comparatively speaking?). The back-end engine is what it is, and after a decade, the game we have is the 'emergent' result of that system.
I don't know squat, I'm speculating above. But we all are I think. The future I see for this game, is that it can't go on forever, they will eventually have to bet the house, on XIV v3, crate whole new back ends, and hybird dual client front end that is used when you aetherite to XIV 10.0 (so that they can try and bring their user base over), pray to god they don't lose too many raiders who will be pissed that all that 'exceptional' skill, now counts for not much, and they are playing a 'totally' different game.

Yeah as the diffculty goes up, all that seems to mean, is we are going to pair back the amount of time you have to get into position between mechanics to the minimum our server-client engine can achieve, and we are going to make it harder and harder for you to "work out" where it is you need to get to ahead of time, while all the time making you keep pushing 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-5-1-2-3-64-1-2-3... .

TLDR; I think they can create something of a more organic experience, but with the current engine it will always be too limited and what little is possible will get stale fast, and just wont compare to other games that have come out since. XIV (I gather) is 'very' unique in the feel of its battle. Sort of realtime, sort of.. not. IF they stop being so unique, then they have to start going head to head with others that have that design baked in from concept, without also needed to pander or compromise on any pre-existing preferences that pull in opposite directions.

But absolutely I think it would be great to hear more about this.

[Mr_Gyactus]

Am I completely out of touch?

Yes, you are.
If you were, why the players do high end content WITH a guide (written from who knows who) under the nose and a premade group?

Go blind, go with a random group and figure out the fight.
What really removed with the feast is the premade pvp group. CC is spicy because there is the hardcore highly skilled pvp player AND sackboy wiith a banana glamour.

[Kaurhz]

The sentiment is nice, but honestly even if it were considered, it would need to be a transitional.. Try it on newer dungeons/trials/raids, see how people take to it and then if they take to it, do more of a systematic overhaul.

With a direct overhaul like this you can just as quickly find yourself swimming in a serious volume of negative feedback, so it's always a large scale piece of work that could ultimately end up going down the toilet if it isn't tried and tested in a PvE context... It's well and good it working in a PvP context, but doesn't mean it would always translate well with PvE.

[Voidmage]

The sentiment is nice, but honestly even if it were considered, it would need to be a transitional.. Try it on newer dungeons/trials/raids, see how people take to it and then if they take to it, do more of a systematic overhaul.

With a direct overhaul like this you can just as quickly find yourself swimming in a serious volume of negative feedback, so it's always a large scale piece of work that could ultimately end up going down the toilet if it isn't tried and tested in a PvE context... It's well and good it working in a PvP context, but doesn't mean it would always translate well with PvE.

I honestly think that is what Criterion, field zones or the chaotic raid could have been.
Experimental content in their own bubble to try those thing.
Chaotic even does it a bit with the randomness in it while criterion does with different paths and different boss patterns.
It just... isn't really good.

I agree with OP mostly.
i think a shakeup of pve is needed. Everything is just too scripted nowadays with boring job gameplay.
PvP was a step in the right direction but they don't use anything they learned from it.

It kinda seems like pvp was were the devs had free creative room but are called back by the higher ups for pve.

[Gurgeh]

Am I completely out of touch?

Yes, you are.
If you were, why the players do high end content WITH a guide (written from who knows who) under the nose and a premade group?

Go blind, go with a random group and figure out the fight.
What really removed with the feast is the premade pvp group. CC is spicy because there is the hardcore highly skilled pvp player AND sackboy wiith a banana glamour.

I get why people are rude sometimes when they feel provoked, but some people, just want to mean to anyone who tires to be helpful. (Or they don't get rhetorical and its a 'neuro' thing.)

Valance, you are suggesting improving the game to make it interesting.

Gyactus is suggesting you create your own weird and wonderful ways to handicap yourself. (Its like people expecting me to make crafting interesting by not using solvers and macros, that makes it something... but not interesting. No they need to rethink crafting completely so I can get back to it as mini game. I work in software and code for fun. I don't get any satisfaction out of using a very well designed simple tool to so the work for me. And I wont feel good doing it the hard way when I cant even make enough gil to buy raid gear. My choices are boring or excruciatingly futile . Nice! Perfect! Change nothing! I had a friend sprout how loved crafting. He was kinda heartbroken to to find out all the effort he was putting in up to 60, just goes out the window and its all done for you later, and boy is there a reason why. He loved crafting. He was proud of it. [yup, no longer playing])

I also suspect you and Gyactus are talking about different games? Gyactus is talking about high end, you are might not be?

If its casual, yeah we are all doing casual blind. Its really piss boring by the time you've got five expansions under your belt.
No it really is, piss boring.
The lastest dungeon was 'wonderful'
The normal trials have been 'wonderful'
The normal raids were 'wonderful'
Although at the end of the day, I've literally barely seen a wipe except in M3 normal. Less in M2. None to mention in M1, M4. Yeah some but nothing I notice, a woopsie daisy. Your just praying for an inexperienced healer, no RDMs to back them up, and some inexperienced DPS to keep them busy.
Blind makes no difference.
But once OP expansion gear kicks in they will be piss boring again too. And those are not the majority of our content. The majority of casual content is Quarn and Labarynth. (I exaggerate but you get the point.)

Your not out of touch with yourself. Your not out of touch withe the friends you are talking to. And its the job game to entertain you, not your job to artificially add layers to the game to make it interesting. Even if we are talking about end game, I love blind prog, I hate guides, but once I'm at the sticky points, I'd just feel excruciatingly embarrassed asking party to explain or wait while I understand what this mechanic is that other people would call a 'limit cut?', where's the cut? what's limited? OK I think I got it... sorry whats limited again?

[Kaurhz]

I honestly think that is what Criterion, field zones or the chaotic raid could have been.
Experimental content in their own bubble to try those thing.
Chaotic even does it a bit with the randomness in it while criterion does with different paths and different boss patterns.
It just... isn't really good.

I agree with OP mostly.
i think a shakeup of pve is needed. Everything is just too scripted nowadays with boring job gameplay.
PvP was a step in the right direction but they don't use anything they learned from it.

It kinda seems like pvp was were the devs had free creative room but are called back by the higher ups for pve.

A shake-up is needed yeah, that much I do agree with, but it doesn't necessarily mean it would be the right shake-up that the wider community would accept. I'm not saying it's absolutely a bad idea, but it absolutely does need to be sandboxed first, whether that's in Criterion, field zones, or your bog standard dungeons and raids.

But IMO, it would need to be tried and tested in the general content that everyone will interact with, as like OP said, it would need to account for not destroying older content, and even then how that older content is played would still need to transition well into how current/newer content would be played. Like, there's no point in trucking people through 100 levels of game and then turning around and going "So much is going to be different now...", it has to feel like an organic and fluid experience right the way through, and not just a "Well this functions still"