IL Restrictions for Current Content in PF are Bad for the Game

[Starrya]

I think the ability to gatekeep current content above the minimum required item level (IL) in party finder (PF) does more harm for the game than good. I understand it for unsync farming old content and announcements, but for current content it encourages toxic, potentially self-destructive choices.

First, I've used PF for current ultimate where the minimum IL is the maximum IL, and I have not felt a considerable difference in their prog ability compared to other content where IL can more easily be used as a limiting factor. Second, IL restrictions don't play nice with the game's own random rolls for gear. For the first few weeks of savage, it is more than possible to get unlucky and just not have the extra IL that some groups start using to gatekeep. A toggle for already clearing the fight is sufficient, and if they really do want an additional meaningful slider, the incorporation of Stone, Sky, Sea would be a better indicator of someone's competence than how well they rolled on loot last week. Finally, the ability to restrict IL allows people to effectively lock players out of less difficult high-end content (such as EX trials that come out after the current patch's savage tier or the new chaotic alliance raid) by requiring those players to have completed more difficult content first, forcing a nonsensical entry point into high-end content.

tl;dr The ability to restrict the IL of current content beyond the min IL in PF hurts new and unlucky high-end players without adding much if any benefit to the people doing it.

[Kaurhz]

Part of this problem is SEs inability to add proper progression, e.g., with Chaotic (I assume this discussion follows up from there), whether that is via the absence of a lower difficulty tier with it, or by some other measure

With this absence people will always take it upon themselves to add their own arbitrary requirements to a duty. Sadly all this has done has put a shining light on an issue with the game that has persisted for far, far too long.

[Lilapop]

PF is 100% gate kept. This isn't new.

[Starrya]

PF is 100% gate kept. This isn't new.

But it is bad. Kaurhz was correct, the chaotic alliance raid has shined a considerable light on how bad it is. I happen to have max IL gear right now, but I have already seen alliances ripped apart before even getting into the instance because half the people want to crank the required IL up to max for the best chance when they get in and the other half don't want to wait for a full alliance of max IL players before they can play.

[CNitsah]

Honestly, they put put the haircut elsewhere, there would only be the marginal few that come to complain as soon as something is out of their reach.

But here they achieve to put a heavily casual glam item, that A LOT of non raiders wants behind what basically a savage 24 men raid.

Did they really think raider would welcome people that never set foot in extremes and everything would go smoothly? (and I don't blame them for that, you don't want your farm party to look like your prog party).

[Starrya]

Honestly, they put put the haircut elsewhere, there would only be the marginal few that come to complain as soon as something is out of their reach.

But here they achieve to put a heavily casual glam item, that A LOT of non raiders wants behind what basically a savage 24 men raid.

Did they really think raider would welcome people that never set foot in extremes and everything would go smoothly? (and I don't blame them for that, you don't want your farm party to look like your prog party).

You make some good points. They're in a bit of a bind. On one hand, everyone lamented how useless criterion rewards were, but now that they put something even casual players will really want in, there will be more of an influx of newer players. While that should be a good thing, the fight is difficult enough to make career raiders afraid they'll have too many new players to clear in their groups. Still, with the alliance raid steadily granting access to 730 items, I still think the IL requirements are the weakest they could be at keeping out new players while simultaneously making it take longer to fill groups.

[CNitsah]

You make some good points. They're in a bit of a bind. On one hand, everyone lamented how useless criterion rewards were, but now that they put something even casual players will really want in, there will be more of an influx of newer players. While that should be a good thing, the fight is difficult enough to make career raiders afraid they'll have too many new players to clear in their groups. Still, with the alliance raid steadily granting access to 730 items, I still think the IL requirements are the weakest they could be at keeping out new players while simultaneously making it take longer to fill groups.

It would have been a totally different story if the whole thing was extreme difficulty, as it was intended, but then they went overboard. Extreme being more forgiving, it might have worked. But no, they made it savage. And they told us it was supposed to be Extreme, which make the whole thing even worse in the eyes of the people that get locked out of a haircut.

[Valence]

So I don't know how it is on other DFs, but this thread sounds like a storm in a kettle even if I agree in principle. I just opened PF on Light right now, peek times, out of 36 parties recruiting for it, 3 are locked to i730. Most of the others are a mix of no restriction, i710, i720, and some i725/i728...

Guess I'll wait and see how it goes over time since it's still only day 2. I'm more worried for what happens in a month.

[Jeeqbit]

I think the ability to gatekeep current content above the minimum required item level (IL) in party finder (PF) does more harm for the game than good.

I vehemently disagree with you. The minimum IL required is usually ridiculously low to account for lazy players who just returned to the game at the last minute and didn't bother gearing up.

As such, these players have usually not played for ages and perform worse, so if you set a high item level, it tends to filter it to just the competent, good players, in my experience. I wish we had better ways to filter it to good players, but we don't.

However, there is a drawback to setting a high item level requirement - which is that it will take longer to fill. This is because the majority of the playerbase are casuals... so you have to weigh it up. Is the content really hard enough to restrict it?

For example, if I am doing Byakko Unreal, I'm not gonna set a super high item level requirement, because it's so easy that I can teach it to a party of sprouts quick.

But there are fights that are painful enough to prog without continually getting clueless people in it that keep you gated for months in PF.

it encourages toxic, potentially self-destructive choices.

I could argue it's toxic to not bother doing the bare minimum... like going to the market board, buying crafted gear and augmenting it to 720? Doesn't take long. It's just lazy not to.

Or that it's toxic to spend the entire timer not trying to learn or improve at all or showing some evidence of a growing grasp of the mechanics.

I've used PF for current ultimate where the minimum IL is the maximum IL, and I have not felt a considerable difference in their prog ability compared to other content where IL can more easily be used as a limiting factor.

You're talking about Ultimates. The people that are being gated by ilvl are gated already because it's max ilvl. Also, most of the people being gated are not doing ultimates anyway. They are trying to do content further down than that like Savage or Extremes.

I can give you an example I experienced once. I was in Hades ex when it was current. A person joined and they didn't even have artifact gear. Literally gear the MSQ gives you for free. We could not beat the enrage because of them. Probably the normal version of Hades would have wiped them too.

the incorporation of Stone, Sky, Sea would be a better indicator of someone's competence than how well they rolled on loot last week.

I agree with you and wish SE would implement a requirement to have beaten the most challenging Stone, Sky, Sea dummy into PF. I have wished this for a long time.

I just opened PF on Light right now, peek times, out of 36 parties recruiting for it, 3 are locked to i730.

This. Most people don't set item level restrictions anyway (this actually bothers me because often I just want to join a party instead of making yet another listing). And you do in fact get people frantically getting some gear together to just barely survive in it sometimes (and that's just the ones I've seen vocal about it).

[Menriq]

People being able to create their groups however they want is a hill I'm willing to die on. One of the following two things will happen:

1.) The group will fill, thus meaning there was enough interest in their parameters that they were able to fill, so their requirements were not unreasonable.
2.) The group does not fill, which means there was not enough interest and they either need to change their parameters, or don't do whatever it is they were creating a group for.