Chaotic Alliance Raid is a fun fight, but awful content

[Fuyuqi]

Sometimes it can discourage leaving, but not always. There are also other factors why people leave: needing to eat, sleep or work. Especially with the sort of playerbase we have that mostly play 2 hours a day or so.

I mean I'm gonna be honest I don't see how that's relevant. That has nothing to do with the fight lol.

The people leaving right away are the players who don't want to be trapped on the first 3 minutes of the fight over and over when they wanna prog the next 3 minutes of the fight. If it were instead 3 or so bosses that were 4 minutes long similar to a normal alliance raid, they would only have to get past the first few minutes ONCE to repeatedly practice the part they want to. Why would they leave when they'd just have to suffer getting past the first 3 minutes all over again?

Again, not sure why you're arguing this point about splitting the bosses actually discouraging leaving instead of encouraging it. In the first place, I just brought multiple bosses up because people in general seem to be unhappy with the 12 minute single boss being what we receive for "hard alliance raid" content when it doesn't feel like an alliance raid at all. It won't fix the issue of leaving that you brought up, but it certainly would make it a lot better on top of making it feel more like an alliance raid.

[Fuyuqi]

They could have saved a lot of work and made content accessible to the bulk of the playerbase simply by rescaling the CT alliance raids.

Honestly even though I agree with you I have to say I really do see the value in the idea of a genuinely harder version of an alliance raid intended for people at least a bit more experienced in raiding. It would be genuinely innovative and fresh content, which this game is sorely lacking. Especially with the longer patch cycles, the usual cycle of savage grinding into ultimate just doesn't provide enough value for a lot of raiders.

[Mawlzy]

Honestly even though I agree with you I have to say I really do see the value in the idea of a genuinely harder version of an alliance raid intended for people at least a bit more experienced in raiding. It would be genuinely innovative and fresh content, which this game is sorely lacking. Especially with the longer patch cycles, the usual cycle of savage grinding into ultimate just doesn't provide enough value for a lot of raiders.

Sure, any innovation is welcome. And if people enjoy new content I wouldn't suggest denying it to them. But as multiple threads indicate, those of us not interested or not skilled enough to take on such high-level content are getting increasingly bored and miffed.

[Valence]

I'm not surprised that the only way to introduce challenge in the current system is just to put big body checks, because there is nothing else left to prevent players from progressing in hardcore content. Not that this should ever have been hardcore content in the first place... At least in challenging casual content, you can just slow down progression by just being more brutal on the raid without wall blocking the whole alliance with body checks. Just let people limp through things...

Also trash can be made more interesting as well, especially looking at criterion dungeons. It would help with the difficulty as well, allowing some out of combat "checkpoints" so that newer players aren't expected to be fully focused for 12 minutes straight and instead can learn more comfortably in shorter bursts of 4-6 minutes. If anything, multiple bosses would actually also discourage leaving, since you would actually be losing progress when you do leave instead of throwing yourself at the same wall from zero every time. If you've done any 2-phase savage fight or even DSR you'll see that effect. Sunk cost fallacy and all.

Criterion trash is the only good thing I've kept from criterion.

The only complaint i dont agree with is that there's no trash
trash is literally never fun. I wish wow would completely do away with it too, it is always a waste of my and everyone elses time.

Leave that to dungeons not raids

Run criterion and check out how trash is designed. It's not even hard, could be probably done by most players in the game, and yet it's interesting enough that you can't just fall asleep over it. This is what normal criterion should have been about with its bosses as well instead of going full savage mode, and this is what harder ARs should have been about as well.

[Havenchild]

Sure, any innovation is welcome. And if people enjoy new content I wouldn't suggest denying it to them. But as multiple threads indicate, those of us not interested or not skilled enough to take on such high-level content are getting increasingly bored and miffed.

But that's also your choice to not engage in such content. If the dev isn't providing the content you want, unsub and come back when there is stuff that you specifically want to do.

Or...engage in new types of content so that you have more stuff to do overall.

[ViinaS]

But that's also your choice to not engage in such content. If the dev isn't providing the content you want, unsub and come back when there is stuff that you specifically want to do.

Or...engage in new types of content so that you have more stuff to do overall.

This is not about type of content. This is content difficulty.
People wanted more difficulty Alliance Raids apart from the normal 24-people-snoozefest-3-set per expansion.
What people didn't want was a 24-man Savage fight.

Also "this content is not for you" is very easy to say for High-end raiders as they have been given Savage, FRU and now Chaotic while the only casual content that was delivered so far is the coockie-cutter first-set-of-3 Aliance Raid.
As for Midcore content? The usual 1 EX fight in 7.1.
Woooow.

Face it already, DT has a massive issue with content, especially with how stretched full of nothing the patch cycles have become.

[Kaurhz]

But that's also your choice to not engage in such content. If the dev isn't providing the content you want, unsub and come back when there is stuff that you specifically want to do.

Or...engage in new types of content so that you have more stuff to do overall.

New 'types' of content? LOL..

I'm sorry but the game this expansion hasn't really had a new content type outside of raids for this expansion, and won't have such until at least another several months. You would have a fair point if they actually introduced new content types, or if those content types were substantive enough. There's nothing substantive about doing a Hildibrand quest or your weekly custom deliveries LOL.

Edit: Choice doesn't exist currently for a lot of players when the devs are going into a singular niche. This problem will be entirely reversed in 7.4 when people have consumed the final tier of raid, when they are scrabbling together wondering what they can do because they don't like or don't want to grind exploratory content. Wondering what they can do for the next year.

[Voidmage]

Honestly even though I agree with you I have to say I really do see the value in the idea of a genuinely harder version of an alliance raid intended for people at least a bit more experienced in raiding. It would be genuinely innovative and fresh content, which this game is sorely lacking. Especially with the longer patch cycles, the usual cycle of savage grinding into ultimate just doesn't provide enough value for a lot of raiders.

I think no one is denying for that content to exist and all.
I think it’s a mix of a huge content drought for non raiders, a desired hairstyle locked behind while they get the wet mop one and Yoshida not being transparent enough about it with his annoying secret keeping of everything.

The worst offender is the locked hairstyle I think.
Even the Delibrum hairstyle was just locked behind normal content.
High end raiders always got the shiny weapons and shiny glamour and majority of casuals accepted that but… I think the mounts and glamour and maybe a weapon would have been enough and the hairstyle could have been an event reward.


In the end all out feedback is useless anyway because Yoshida won’t admit or say anything like always.
They will continue to implement chaotic raid in the same way, lock even more hairstyles behind it and ignore the rest of the players.
People like the streamers will be happy, he has is PR and can sleep fine.

At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the field content also turns out to have some overtuned duty with something the casuals and midcore want locked behind it why everything else will be the usual prism, minion and ugly housing crap.

Edit:
How long has it been since they did anything outside the usual boss trial that was interesting?
Island sanctuary (lol) or was it even Ishgard restoration?

[CNitsah]

I'll c/p what I said in the other thread, because it also belong here.

My guess is that they designed the rewards (especially the haircut) to push non raider to try to raid : if this was the planned difficulty (extreme), it might have worked. People were asking for BA DRS lvl and content, and the rewards fits that. But they went overboard and went to savage lvl, and didn't change anything. Thus

- The rewards and restriction are misleading. It seem anyone can try it, but the reality is that it's not : it's a content aimed at raiders. They tried to uphold the confusion to some degree, which lead to many being disappointed when it released.
- The whole bonus thing has become useless : in a fight with body-check that can make the alliance wipe if one is dead, which raider in his right mind would let people that never raided join (I don't blame them). You don't want your farming parties to last as long as your first one. The bonus is low, so it's probably better and faster to do 2 runs with people that know the fight that risking to have players that make you wipe. They totally ignored how people play once again.

This whole raiders helping the casuals cannot work in a fight that's so punishing. Could have worked in BA, could have worked in DRS, but doesn't here. The idea was great, the implementation is awful.

It's a shame because in the end, very few of the complaints I see are about the fight itself (except the body check one : it's already a pain in a 8 men, so with 3 times that...), but rather about how it's unclear who they wanted aim that for, about the fact it's onother high end raid, after already getting Extreme, Savage and Ultimate in this patch while non raiders can go to hell, and how long the content is gonna last because of those problems. There is also the "don't put haircuts behind savage, especially not the contest ones : if you send the message that the haircuts/weapon might be locked behind high lvl, people might stop to engage with those".

Once again SE achieve to do all the right (wrong) choice to get backlash from a content that is, overall, pretty good for what it is (it seems raiders love it).

But that's also your choice to not engage in such content. If the dev isn't providing the content you want, unsub and come back when there is stuff that you specifically want to do.

Or...engage in new types of content so that you have more stuff to do overall.

Yeah, sure, but the problem we have is that, until ShB, ignoring raid content was a totally viable option. You had things to do. Since EW, it's not anymore. I don't see why we should put the blame on the players that don't want to engage with raiding content when it was a totally viable choice for years in the game. That's something that has been taken from us. The last content with some kind shelf life released in the game was Zadnor, in April 2021. That's 3 years and 8 months ago. Except the raid content, the renewal of content is dead since then. Sure they add mount to farm with bicolor gemstones or crafter gatherer money, but those still mean farming the exact same things that were already there before they added the new rewards.

I really don't like this "you just don't want to run the content" argument, because it put the blame on the individuals, when they litterally cut content from the game that existed in the past. They litterally removed the content I liked and was always there, but I should be glad because they still add content I'm not interested in?

[caffe_macchiato]

But that's also your choice to not engage in such content. If the dev isn't providing the content you want, unsub and come back when there is stuff that you specifically want to do.

Hold on, this isn’t appropriate. Many people say that you should NOT unsub, because you need to do your weeklies to get 730 level (the minimum for this raid). If you don’t want to do it, that means you’re not playing the game enough and you need to “get gud”. Right? So we HAVE to do this. Either that or we give up on Dawntrail entirely. Because what else is there for us to do until summer of 2025? And when the next CAR comes out, you’re going to say we should’ve been playing this whole time. There’s no winning option here. Either we waste hours and hours during the holidays grinding or we leave for good.