Don't do chaotic raid again

[remiff]

The vast majority of content in the game is casual content.

You simply read between the lines and misunderstood where I was coming from, even though I was clear in my texts.

There is no occasional content with a medium difficulty; everything is excessively easy.
There are no light challenges or anything in between in FF14. I am, of course, referring to content accessible to all types of players that isn't tribal quests, MSQ dungeons, or 24-man raids, which are highly repetitive and provide no challenge, not even subtle ones.

There is no transitional content between normal and extreme in FF14, and the majority of players don’t necessarily want to invest hours and hours into progression.
Extreme content is already rarely farmed, and savage and ultimate content are niche activities with very low participation rates.

I’m not saying Square-Enix should ignore players who enjoy a bit of challenge;
I’m simply stating that the 3rd division has never truly tried to create content that doesn’t specifically require party finder, offers a gameplay experience between normal and extreme modes, and has decent replay value.

Since Eureka and Bozja, the game has had none.

And outside of this type of content, we have no new additions of this kind.
The attempts to create such content have all been resounding failures because they were not truly designed for this purpose.

[Bonoki]

Isn't it ironic? We asked for more challenging 24-man content for years, and now that SE has delivered, people are complaining that it’s not accessible enough for casual players. This feels like moving the goalposts—if we want challenging content, it can’t always cater to everyone. Isn’t the whole point of asking for difficulty to push ourselves beyond the usual? And yet, we wonder why the game is constantly dumbed down.

[NaoSen]

Why not? I mean other than that you don't need it or want it? People have been asking for midcore content forever.
You know... YOU don't have to play the midcore content if it's not for you.

Actually, midcore content is the content I want the most, I don't savage raid, I don't do ultimate's, I'm going to give chaotic a go, but there's no reason people should not have chaotic savage because it may require listening on VC for some people.

[remiff]

Isn't it ironic? We asked for more challenging 24-man content for years, and now that SE has delivered, people are complaining that it’s not accessible enough for casual players. This feels like moving the goalposts—if we want challenging content, it can’t always cater to everyone. Isn’t the whole point of asking for difficulty to push ourselves beyond the usual? And yet, we wonder why the game is constantly dumbed down.

There’s absolutely no issue with introducing challenging 24-man content.
The problem is that it targets a minority of players, meaning it will quickly die off, and there’s no alternative.
If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

The issue is that they don’t provide content with a medium level of challenge.
It’s either too easy, or it’s extreme or savage, and they know very well that this type of content doesn’t work. Be it criterion dungeons or similar content, it has never worked and never will.

So why not adapt content to have a version accessible to a broader majority of players instead of once again creating niche content? Especially when the game has been experiencing a drought of content with good replayability and casual++ appeal since Endwalker.

[Toutatis]

Also, the issue isn't that someone has a social anxiety of any sort. It's that going from "This is Dying/Dead content -> "Well Recruit via Discord" -> "But my social anxiety" Is an overused excuse with XIV players. If you are so adverse to community driven content and goals, while having crippling social anxiety, than you shouldn't be complaining about the content you seemingly CANT do regardless. Clearly you don't want those drops enough then.

You may not suffer from social anxiety but you certainly do so from ignorance. Social anxiety is a disorder that can cause physical symptoms and people like you just make it worse. It’s not about not wanting.

That being said, while I find the raid fun, it would have been better to have a toned down version with at least slightly longer timers (or just remove the doom part). Being dependent on 23 other people to not mess up a mechanic is a bit much and contributes to toxicity. This game seriously lacks midcore content that could be used as a stepping stone for harder content.

I also always found the community in this game to not be very helpful. It's day 1 and there were several groups just pulling and not taking the time to explain anything causing the same mistakes being repeated over and over (this is not new to this Chaotic raid). Like there’s this day 1 blind fresh prog announced in PF. The group fails to deal with endeath because they don’t know what it does yet and someone immediately starts complaining at how people can’t deal with endeath and are incompetent. Why not simply explain what the mechanic is instead of throwing a tantrum that doesn’t help anyone. It wouldn’t take longer, it would be more pleasant and it would speed up the learning process.

[Bonoki]

There’s absolutely no issue with introducing challenging 24-man content.
The problem is that it targets a minority of players, meaning it will quickly die off, and there’s no alternative.
If there were a version of the fight designed to cater to a broader majority of players, it would be a different story.

That’s exactly my point—this content exists because the community has been asking for Savage-like 24-man raids since Ozma. SE finally delivered on those requests, and now people are upset that it’s geared toward the audience asking for it. You can’t have it both ways—either we let SE target this niche for the challenge we’ve been demanding, or we stop asking for content like this altogether.

[CNitsah]

Isn't it ironic? We asked for more challenging 24-man content for years, and now that SE has delivered, people are complaining that it’s not accessible enough for casual players. This feels like moving the goalposts—if we want challenging content, it can’t always cater to everyone. Isn’t the whole point of asking for difficulty to push ourselves beyond the usual? And yet, we wonder why the game is constantly dumbed down.

No problem with adding that by itself. The problem is that, in the vacuum that is the content for the past 3 years, players are starved for content and they jump on anything, even if it's not for them. In an ideal world, more casual players would have other things to do than running the Savage lvl content. But they don't. SE created the context for this to blow up.

How many people have never set foot in eureka (thus BA) are fllooding here for the haircut or because it's the only thing to do with some kind of novelty in it.

[Bonoki]

No problem with adding that by itself. The problem is that, in the vacuum that is the content for the past 3 years, players are starved for content and they jump on anything, even if it's not for them. In an ideal world, more casual players would have other things to do than running the Savage lvl content. But they don't. SE created the context for this to blow up.

I agree with your point, but I don’t think giving casual players other content to focus on would have changed much here. They’d still jump into this content because of its individual rewards. Let’s be real—slap a desirable hairstyle on something, especially one you can sell for gil, and people will flock to it regardless of the difficulty or intended audience. That’s just how it works.

[CNitsah]

I agree with your point, but I don’t think giving casual players other content to focus on would have changed much here. They’d still jump into this content because of its individual rewards. Let’s be real—slap a desirable hairstyle on something, especially one you can sell for gil, and people will flock to it regardless of the difficulty or intended audience. That’s just how it works.

Totally agree with that, my previous comment was about how SE seem to be obsessed with completion rates, and puting a haircut in a savage lvl raid is only there to try to funnel more players in the content to boost their completion rate, despite the fact you don't make a casual player into a raider magically.

SE refuse the answer "people don't engage with harder content because they don't want to" and are trying their hardest to make people do harder content, which is doomed to fail.

[Absurdity]

It's an attitude problem of the "Western" part of the community, where being able to clear a mechanic 3 out of 4 times (unless of course it's the "cursed" pattern, which happens half the time), is regarded as "I have mastered this mechanic". This kind of behavior is already a problem in 8 man content, it's simply aggravated with 3 times that player count.

The amount of "prog lying" certainly has gotten worse over the years.

We were half a static, 2 tanks 2 healers, and had to pug all the DPS in PF this raid tier. Cleared up to M4S in about 2 months, but it took us an extra 2 months to clear M4S because
1. Parties just wouldn't fill for hours, we had raid nights where we sat in PF for 2 hours just to fill the last dps spot. (with only 2 raid nights of 3-4 hours a week this was already bad enough)
2. People were flat out joining for mechanics way further than they had seen and sandbagged everyone else, I stopped counting the amount of times our phase 2 prog turned into EE2 prog because people lied about getting to phase 2.