Damage gap closer should vanish

[Valence]

I have a strong belief that dash skills should be purely a movement utility ability and not deal damage, is it not convenient to use a movement ability for maximum damage to use dash. Sometimes I do not have a dash available in Savage content since it is used in my opener as WAR, (M2S and M4S as examples) and I suffer later on since I can't dash in to keep my uptime.

However, the core programming of the dash must be changed to function the same in dungeons if damage is removed, What we see in dungeons with the DRK and GNB is less effective dash to get the agro for the pack, it is a delayed effect. For those who play all the tanks the GNB and DRK dash feel bad for add pulls, where they don't target you as quickly compared to PLD and WAR. The damage aspect allows a more consistent add-pack agro. What they should do is apply a "Fake damage hit" which it simulates a damage registration when doing 0 damage in addition to the agro generation, this will keep the responsiveness on the "hit" so the dash feels the same and keep the utility.

If you need a dash for mobility later, then why are you using it in your opener? That's the whole concept of opportunity cost abilities. And you have 3 charges as well those days. 3 whole charges. I can get that for a question of tastes one may not like this kind of strategic consideration (personally I'm neither hot nor cold about it so I don't really care), but mechanically it's sound.

For dungeon pulls, maybe I'm old school but why are dashes suddenly needed and such a big deal? Why do tanks need dashes to pull stuff those days? Isn't ranged/voke into AoE enough and how it's always worked?

[Azurarok]

For dungeon pulls, maybe I'm old school but why are dashes suddenly needed and such a big deal? Why do tanks need dashes to pull stuff those days? Isn't ranged/voke into AoE enough and how it's always worked?

I'm used to dash -> aoe to pull packs in the middle of the hallway so I kinda get the aggro part. Doesn't help that DT dungeons tend to have bigger packs for those so it's easier to miss some of them.


This wouldn't have been an issue in the first place had we had the old gauge spender onslaught though. Using it to manage gauge to squeeze as many fell cleaves as we could into berserk's window was a lot more interesting.

[Post]

Yeah, having to choose between output or utility is such a drag. All damage should just be a 2 min dot we put up and then we just walk to our clock positions and light party stacks.

I don't want to play a game where I have to fear being sub-optimal at any moment, that would slow down my numbers filling bars and as we all know that's where the joy is to be found

[SWATomega]

If you need a dash for mobility later, then why are you using it in your opener? That's the whole concept of opportunity cost abilities. And you have 3 charges as well those days. 3 whole charges. I can get that for a question of tastes one may not like this kind of strategic consideration (personally I'm neither hot nor cold about it so I don't really care), but mechanically it's sound.

For dungeon pulls, maybe I'm old school but why are dashes suddenly needed and such a big deal? Why do tanks need dashes to pull stuff those days? Isn't ranged/voke into AoE enough and how it's always worked?

The example i used was for Savage content where every bit of damage is a make-it-or break-it for a clear or not, to squeeze every bit of damage out. But that is also a problem where we need to use a utility option to be able to clear and we don't get the luxury to hold our dashes for re-engagement.

For the dungeon pulls, it is for the benefit of it being OGCD that allows for an easy follow-up with an AoE, it is a change of habit for tanks at high levels to get in as fast as we can gather up all the add packs and start to AoE them down. So the dash into AoE is just more convenient for this style. Why have the enemy come to us when it is so much easier to go to them.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

The example i used was for Savage content where every bit of damage is a make-it-or break-it for a clear or not, to squeeze every bit of damage out. But that is also a problem where we need to use a utility option to be able to clear and we don't get the luxury to hold our dashes for re-engagement.

OK, I'm getting really tired of this rethoric being said ad nauseam, so let's actually talk about it.

1.) We were given the Charge system in Shadowbringers specifically so we have the luxury to hold dashes for re-engagement without outright losing potency from losing recasts (drifting the CD unused). The only reason you guys are complaining about this is because of how fixated you are on the damage metric of stuffing everything into a condensed burst window at all costs.

2.) The three jobs with damaging OGCD dashes are currently Paladin, Warrior and Red Mage. I'm not counting Samurai, because their's is damage neutral to their ffiller spender. Going by a 120s burst window with a combined +28,8% damage boost (AST, MNK, NIN, DNC, PCT) from raid buffs, let's actually break down what you "lose" if you drop a charge outside of the burst window:

• Paladin's Intervene is on 30s recharge @ 2 charges doing 150 potency + you have a personal burst every 60s, you gotta make choices if 1-2x Holy Spirit (400p, 500p with Divine Might) isn't enough.
  Math (Burst window): 150p * 1.25 (FoF) * 1.288 (raid buffs) - 150p = 91.5 potency gain during a raid buff window
  Math (FoF-only): 150p * 1.25 - 150p = 37.5 potency gained during a Fight or Flight window.
  
  An auto attack is like 100 potency. Your Fight or Flight window every minute is ~8160 base potency, ~10200 with Fight or Flight unconditionally, without either charge of your dash used. Tell me, does losing 38-92 potency per charge matter if this is what you drop out every minute at Lv100? Crit variance on a Fast Blade has a bigger impact than this.
  -
• Warrior's Onslaught is on 30s recharge @ 3 charges doing 150 potency, with no personal burst window that affects Onslaught. So at most, 2min raidbuff contribution can be taken into account here.
  
  150p * 1,288 * 1.1 (self buff) - 150p = 62.5p per Onslaught gained under raid buffs (43p without Surging Tempest). Your base burst without Onslaught (8 GCDs, with 2x Inner Chaos + 1x normal Fell Cleave) if done right does about 10703 potency (Crit-DH multiplier x1,9875, ignoring DH bonus damage from DH stat because math hard), 11774p with Surging Tempest. Moving an Onslaught or even two per 2min window has negligible impact to your DPS contribution, especially when looking the whole party's damage output as a whole.
  -
• Red Mage's Corps-a-Corps is on 35s recharge @ 2 charges doing 169 potency (130 + 30% Magic & Mend trait), plus you are a caster so you don't even "need" it as utility most of the time anyways, you could just walk up to a boss half the time for melee attacks after a dualcast.
  
  Red Mage's 120s burst (2x Verflare/Holy, 2x Scorch, 2x Resolution, 1x Melee combo, 1x Fleche + Contre + Corps + Engagement, Vice of Thorns, Prefulgence) is 11733 potency with Maim & Mend II, including your own Embolden applying to all applicable attacks. This leads to 15313 potency under raid buffs + Spear card from AST. This leads to a 49 potency gain for a Corps-a-Corps if you drop it under a raid buff window. Surely the message should be clear by now.

Conclusion: At Lv100, your total damage contribution of your dashes in your burst windows is so utterly negligible, you will lose MORE damage by drifting your GCD if you make a mistake and not have a dash (let alone two) when it would help you keep your uptime/avoid weaker ranged attacks.

So let's PLEASE stop repeating about how in savage "every bit of damage counts". My brother/sister in christ, your crit/DH variance and even auto attack uptime will have a bigger impact than losing potency from not having dashes under a raid buff, it's not even funny at this point.

[Azurarok]

Also like... hitting enrage in the current savage tier is usually from too many deaths. If there's literally nothing else you can think of to do better yourself I'm pretty sure it's out of your realm of responsibility, especially as a tank.

[mallleable]

I like dash attacks, and want them to explore the possibilities of more dash attacks.

Couldn't it also just work if using Unmend/Lightning Shot/Piercing Talon just applies a buff that turns Shadowstride/Trajectory/Winged Glide into Plunge/Rough Divide/Spineshatter Dive to make up for some of the damage lost from using those?

I think this would be an excellent compromise.

[Carighan]

We were given the Charge system in Shadowbringers specifically so we have the luxury to hold dashes for re-engagement without outright losing potency from losing recasts (drifting the CD unused). The only reason you guys are complaining about this is because of how fixated you are on the damage metric of stuffing everything into a condensed burst window at all costs.

I mean as much as I agree that focusing on damage has ~0 use outside of Ultimate as none of the current bosses (M3S is the tighest but even that is quite relaxed) are in any way a DPS check, it was Square that made it all about that holy 120s burst window and DPS optimization in lieu of anything else.

It's their game design, I wouldn't fault players for playing it the way the devs clearly intend it to be played.

You are of course correct that optimizing gapclosers (except maybe Red Mage because that's when you need them anyways since your burst is melee but your job is not) into burst is usually worth maybe 3-4 autoattacks over a whole raid fight for a tank and like one extra crit for a Red Mage, if even that. But I still would not say players are weird for optimizing them into the burst, since that's where the devs want them to be used (otherwise they would have either designed the burst or the gapclosers differently).

[Valence]

Eeh, it's on both. SE listens to parse brains, then it's just a circlejerk in the end.

[Praesul]

The damage and crit variance from pull to pull probably has a larger impact on damage than "losing out" on the gapcloser damage in raid buffs.

Not everything should be standardized across all tanks, having variety even if it's small is good flavor, and it's pretty clear the devs intentionally let PLD/WAR keep their damaging gapclosers because they're lower APM than GNB/DRK so they needed filler buttons just to feel good to play, and I agree. Imo they're satisfying buttons to hit just from a game feel perspective not only because the keep the 2 slower jobs a bit more active but the animations are satisfying, especially Onslaught though I may be biased.

I always thought the complaints about the GNB/DRK gapclosers not making sense when used from melee range (so not actually closing any sort of gap) were were dumb because even if your character's hitbox isn't actually moving forward you're still frontflipping in the air and slamming town with a big two handed weapon to do damage in the case of DRK, or doing a fancy manuever in GNB's case that it still makes total sense in a fantasy game.

GNB/DRK needed some oGCD pruning, and while you may agree or disagree on whether the gapclosers should have been where the pruning happened at least there's logic to it, and that logic does not apply to PLD/WAR. On top of that having to figure out at which points you need to save gapclosers charges is an extra bit of mastery that the jobs have even if in the grand scheme of things it likely doesn't make a massive difference.