Why don't we have more DPS abilities ?

[CaptainLagbeard]

You know I wish healing was more like the chaotic duty M7N. Picking your spots to dps is a challenge. I have seen healers who pretty much just dps fail at healing because they are not used to it. I know it will get easier to an extent with gear and more people knowing how to do it, but it is still a wake up call. Most healers have a problem power healing.

It's gotten a lot easier after launch week, but I like Brute Bomber (in both forms), he hits how a Normal Raid should hit. Even his Brutal Impact raidwides later on in the fights will kill pretty much every non-tank if there's no Healing or Mitigation.

[Nero-Voidstails]

It's gotten a lot easier after launch week, but I like Brute Bomber (in both forms), he hits how a Normal Raid should hit. Even his Brutal Impact raidwides later on in the fights will kill pretty much every non-tank if there's no Healing or Mitigation.

brute bong should be the base of all content but what would help tho is rather simple balance fight around the job not the job around the fight

[Sylvain]

We don't because our toolkit is already saturated with heals and that they don't want to make the role scary or intimidating by adding too many DPS skills.

What I fail to understand is how having 1 or 2 extra DPS skill would make it intimidating but having 20+ healing skill wouldn't.

The button bloat concern is real tho, which is why adding extra dps skill should be done with care as to avoid button bloat.

[Taranok]

We don't because our toolkit is already saturated with heals and that they don't want to make the role scary or intimidating by adding too many DPS skills.

What I fail to understand is how having 1 or 2 extra DPS skill would make it intimidating but having 20+ healing skill wouldn't.

The button bloat concern is real tho, which is why adding extra dps skill should be done with care as to avoid button bloat.

It's also just a consequence of the toolkit being horrifically overpowered, and fight design needing to be massively overtuned to challenge the horrifically overpowered toolkits. Which in turn gets to a point where healers need to have simple rotations, because anything more than simple and most healers start failing the binary pass-fail mechanics that the fight design has turned into from a healer and tank perspective. Fight and job design go hand in hand, and unfortunately the devs have chosen the worst possible fight design for both healers and tanks, and are now starting to choose the worst possible fight design for their game, but especially for how casters have been designed up to this point.

[Sylvain]

It's also just a consequence of the toolkit being horrifically overpowered, and fight design needing to be massively overtuned to challenge the horrifically overpowered toolkits. Which in turn gets to a point where healers need to have simple rotations, because anything more than simple and most healers start failing the binary pass-fail mechanics that the fight design has turned into from a healer and tank perspective. Fight and job design go hand in hand, and unfortunately the devs have chosen the worst possible fight design for both healers and tanks, and are now starting to choose the worst possible fight design for their game, but especially for how casters have been designed up to this point.

On the other hand... Some healer do struggle even in dungeons.
So on one hand we're totally busted, on the other... apparently it's not enough to some players?

[Carighan]

Since the idea of making DPS and healing kits interact came up repeatedly, one idea for Scholar:

* Always have two fairies out, both Eos and Selene.
* Eos is the healing fairy. She is fueled by the Scholar doing damage. For each GCD damage ability used, Eos will cast a heal, direct, AoE or HoT based on the damage used.
* Selene is the damage fairy. She is fueld by the Scholar healing. Unlike Eos she does not reflect the type of ability used, but oGCD heal/support abilities add DoT ticks to her next nuke, and GCD healing/shielding causes her to cast nukes (AoE happens automatically if there's other targets nearby).

No real gameplay added, but conceptually kinda cool IMO, plus it'd bring Selene back in a more specific role.

[CaptainLagbeard]

On the other hand... Some healer do struggle even in dungeons.
So on one hand we're totally busted, on the other... apparently it's not enough to some players?

"Bad players are bad, therefore the role is badly designed."

[Carighan]

"Bad players are bad, therefore the role is badly designed."

I think it's more that if your DPS is bad, in most encounters it just means the fight takes longer.

If your healer is bad - and tanks are not self-sufficient - then you wipe. This would be fair design only if the DPS being bad also wipes you, meaning even trashmobs come with an enrage timer basically. Which would be okay for me, so long as it's relaxed enough?

I think in this particular case though, FFXIV's strict avoidance of true hybridization of roles rears its ugly head, though: If no class was really only ever one job only, then your one healer dying in a dungeon fight wouldn't be an issue anyways: Maybe the Paladin is half-healer anyways, so is the Red Mage, who can also rezz. Maybe the tank dies and the Monk or the Sage can take over for that, etc etc.

[PyurBlue]

I think in this particular case though, FFXIV's strict avoidance of true hybridization of roles rears its ugly head, though: If no class was really only ever one job only, then your one healer dying in a dungeon fight wouldn't be an issue anyways: Maybe the Paladin is half-healer anyways, so is the Red Mage, who can also rezz. Maybe the tank dies and the Monk or the Sage can take over for that, etc etc.

Hearkens back to ARR in a way with how the pre job stone classes worked. I enjoyed trying to play DPS and healer at the same time, so I wouldn't be totally opposed to something like that returning. That kind of utility should be costly for a non healer though. Significant MP use and maybe long cast times as well.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I think it's more that if your DPS is bad, in most encounters it just means the fight takes longer.

If your healer is bad - and tanks are not self-sufficient - then you wipe. This would be fair design only if the DPS being bad also wipes you, meaning even trashmobs come with an enrage timer basically. Which would be okay for me, so long as it's relaxed enough?

I think in this particular case though, FFXIV's strict avoidance of true hybridization of roles rears its ugly head, though: If no class was really only ever one job only, then your one healer dying in a dungeon fight wouldn't be an issue anyways: Maybe the Paladin is half-healer anyways, so is the Red Mage, who can also rezz. Maybe the tank dies and the Monk or the Sage can take over for that, etc etc.

I was more commenting on the idea that the overloaded healing kit not being enough for bad players who don't know how to utilize it.