Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Connor]

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

[HikariKurosawa]

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

I've played bard and mch at level 80 and both are completely different. Like what, tactician troubadour and shield samba existing means the jobs are the same? It's not even about easier job balancing, it's about keeping different jobs viable in all content and preventing role stacking from occurring. They want us to bring a diverse set of jobs to each encounter, that's a good thing.

[Connor]

It's not even about easier job balancing, it's about keeping different jobs viable in all content and preventing role stacking from occurring. They want us to bring a diverse set of jobs to each encounter, that's a good thing.

That doesn’t make any sense. Why does being healers mean all their attacks have to be the same? And I mean, if you’re really going to say Scholar and Sage have completely different healing profiles then, I really don’t know what to say.

Oh yeah, they’re doing such a good job of balancing the game right now…not like they had to enforce limit break restrictions and party stat bonuses to stop jobs being locked out of parties entirely. Phys range did barely holding on by a thread and you truly see that as ‘different jobs being viable?’ Are the viable jobs in the room with us now?

Phys ranged shared damage reduction is absolutely an example of homogenisation. Tell me, what exactly is the reason for them to be completely identical? ‘Because one would get locked out it wasn’t’, you say? Gee, if only there was a category of literally shared skills where they can put an ability and have it shared between all jobs in that role. So, why exactly are they taking up ability slots that could be used for actually unique skills when they have the role skills category that does the exact same thing? Because that cannot be handwaved by ‘it makes them all viable’ lol

You’re acting as if homogenisation has to be literally 100% for it to count as existing? Like the sheer fact that one or two minor abilities exist that aren’t homogenised somehow completely nullify the ones that are. Minor acts of homogenisation can be just as damaging or indicative or an issue as major ones. MCH having a 1-2-3 weaponskill combo where Bard doesnt isn’t evidence that homogenisation doesn’t exist lol.

[Supersnow845]

1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.

So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

[HikariKurosawa]

So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

[Connor]

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

Healer skills have literally been made uniform and you don’t consider that ‘uniformity’? I think you might need to reread

[Rithy255]

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

So you haven't seen things becoming uniform and similar when more jobs like old Paladin was moved to fit under burst, all raid buffs were made 2minutes, Healers having one button dps rotations, a 30s dot, very very similar healing kits, tanks all being 1, 2, 3 builder spenders, the list goes on and on

People aren't complaining that literally everything is the same, people are complaining that the game is slowly removing more and more of what made a job stand out, which is by definition homogenization, because its a process of things becoming similar, we're still in that process with some variance but if you look with each expansion despite gaining new jobs things have become more similar and uniform overtime.

Either way seems you don't actually want to engage with others, which is a shame but I'm not surprised.

[Supersnow845]

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

Because you only see what aligns with your viewpoint. We point out that healers have been massively homogenised on their damage profiles but you deny that because healers are divided by their healing, so we point out that the barrier healers have near identical healing kits where SGE abilities were blatantly designed to copy SCH ability to varying effects (soteria copies union, Zoe copies recitation, druachole copies lustrate, kerechole copies sacred soil, kardia copies embrace) and you deny that because kardia and embrace technically are applied slightly differently even though to the end user this never makes a difference. However even though healers are defined by their healing tanks have to have similar tanking kits which justifies why their tanking skills are so similar but their core damage rotation also isn’t homogenised because they slightly differ in their burst profile, then we point out that every job has been forced to be a builder spender despite them not originally being a builder spender but that’s also not making the more similar because that’s a balance consideration

You quoted a definition that says “to become similar” but every time classes become more similar you either deflect it as a balance consideration (which doesn’t make it not homogenisation) or say “if it’s not exactly the same it’s not homogenisation” despite clear evidence existing that it’s more similar than it used to be

[AlgernonBlackwood]

Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

You do realize that is a completely arbitrary rule that wasn't the case prior to ShB, right? Healers were defined just as much, if not more, by their offensive skillsets (or secondary support skillsets, like AST's card system). You're accepting "one nuke, one DoT" as a sensical design choice, not because it's a normal expectation of healers in MMORPGS (it's not, nor would it be considered acceptable in any other modern multiplayer game), but simply because it's all you know (as evidence by the fact that you seemed to have no idea what Connor was talking about when they brought up SB-era cast times on PRanged and instead started fixating on the modern version of the job's mitigation skills, of all things).

Also, yes "very different damage spells", lol. You have damage neutral heals (Pneuma, Macro), damage neutral mobility (Toxicon, Misery), and your 40/60/120 cd nukes (Phlegma, Assize, Psyche, Oracle, Bainful Impactation, Glare 4), most of which you can only press once a minute, at best. That's it. Well, aside from energy drain (AKA: "the most interesting offensive healer ability in the game"), but that's a true fossil that the devs have already established that they'd love to axe.

Even if we are just talking about healing, there is very little diversity compared to other MMORPGs. Every healer just has slightly different ratios of burst/HoT/shields/%mitigation. Something like "heals when dealing damage" isn't a mechanical identity because it doesn't actually change the way a player approaches playing SGE. It's pure flavor. Every healer wants to keep casting their offensive spells as much as possible, which means at best it's simply rewarding you for playing it the exact same way as every other healer. Contrast with Disc Priest in WOW, whose healing scales with their damage inflicted, requiring the playing to plan their offensive bursts around healing demands. Or imagine if all of SGE's AoE heals worked like Healing Waltz, requiring you to keep track of your Kardia target and plan around their position.

[HikariKurosawa]

Well at least I understand where you guys are coming from now. Can't say the game is ever going to change the way you want it to though. Small degrees of homogenization are what keeps the jobs viable in every situation. It's necessary and not a bad thing.