Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Eraden]

It's definitely pretty evident that a lot of their aims to turn encounters toward their current model that started in late HW/SB, informed completely how they were designing jobs and the battle system over time.

Mao thinkings DDR is lazy way to go. Fights so formulaic and easy to set ups. By moving jobs towards being compatible with DDR, also no longer need worry about thems. Everything samey. Everything simple. Everything easy to code. Everything CHEAP to set ups. Devs just mailings it in.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You have missed my point a little here. I didn’t say you can map every single GCD out, I said the expected cadence of the modern jobs is very static because they all follow the same rhythm. You open with a big burst, settle into filler, dump CD’s that can’t be held for the burst around 1 minute then burst again with all your stockpiled resources. Sure the way you gain those resources may be different but there is a lot to be said about how similar jobs feel when they follow the same cadence as each other. You unlock a new job and you instantly go “okay we’re is the now I burst again button? Which is my big nuke only at 2 minutes? What’s the skill I dump my gauge with in the burst window?”. The jobs all have the same cadence

In answer to your “what would constitute sufficient difference” that’s a question everyone has a different answer for as everyone has different baselines. Hell people in here don’t think the jobs are homogenised so obviously their line hasn’t been reached. I’ll again say that my line is breaking the current “every job has exactly the same profile”. So MNK being 45/90 rather than 60/120 wouldn’t because it’s still the same builder spender with flat non alterable cadence, it would just also be really bad now

[Valence]

It always boils down to the same argument, defenders of the current model will counter by saying that jobs (at least dps jobs) do all feel different because they have different vibes and also a different, distinct tactile feeling to play (which is true). Others will just retort that the general patterns, motifs and profiles are being homogenized (which is also true).

If the tactile feel was also being homogenized, like it is already notable for tanks, you'd not even be into the homogenization realm anymore, you'd be in the copy pasta realm. And if they removed the minute detail differences between an upgraded shadowed vigil and damnation, then you'd finally get your perfect carbon copies.

[Mikey_R]

You assumed I mean bosses be affected by CC, but I thought of mobs. The problem of your thinking is that you can't imagine boss fights with adds/mobs I guess, at least not those that are not totally immune to all sort of CC?!

Going back, I think I have slightly misunderstood what you said from the start. To me it seemed like you wanted CC to be integrated into damage actions? If so, tying potency to them is not a good idea, because they will be used for damage and not the CC. I'm not against CC in general, I have had an idea that using stuns/interrupts could alter how damage comes out from a mechanic as an example. But this is something that doesn't stop the attack, but change it. If we want to CC mobs, that is also fine, the issue is the main boss.

Regarding different combo ends I said - "I think it could be more creative than that though." - and later I said "I don't think having a different combo end is particularly entertaining, it was also more a negative example." - I don't think this is contradicting? Then I made examples of different combo variations and including dots, which often had a bit more meaning to it than just different potencies. In my eyes, those were more interesting at least.

You said, they could be more creative followed by you don't think it is entertaining. This does imply that, no matter what they do to a combo ender/s, you won't find it entertaining, which does imply they should look at something else. Whilst it isn't a direct contradiction, the implication can be made. Also, I think I have a weird take on this, but DoTs on a GCD combo are just a way to force you to use a different combo. Dots are just high potency attacks after all and the only reason to use something else is to get the full effect. As an example, going back to pre DT Ninja, You used Armour Crush to refresh Huton, with Aeolian edge inbetween (this is an overly simplistic view). Huton is basically equivalent to a DoT, You use it, gives a timer, it ticks down, refresh when it gets low/you won't overcap it.

I think once again you limit your creativity by how SE implemented these effects in the past. When I talk of poison, ..

You put poison in the list of things talking about CC. I wouldn't consider poisons CC but part of your rotation.

20% executes were at least a variation of the norm, and you could press a button more when a condition was met. They would have been useful for situation with adds where you need to kill some immediately at a certain time, to create a temporary damage spike. They were usually on a larger cooldown.

We might have to agree to disagree here, I just don't think an extra button that is useless for 80% of a health bar is interesting.

Again with resistances, you think of how they implemented it before. And I think you care too much about damage balancing - it is not as relevant as many think for most raiders. Most raiders are not performing anywhere near of what is possible.

Then how would you change it?

I think in the beginning of ARR raids, people often were in tank stances when tanking - only later and at lvl 60 especially people started stance switching a lot. And now aggro management is almost completely trivial. Why? We still had aggro reset mechanics in Neo Exdeath I think. Healer healing Almagest damage and overhealing leading too them potentially being high in the threat ranking. It is just another abandoned concept of RPG games that has been thrown out and deemed undesirable.

I'm not going to go on my usual long posts about why the tank stances were bad. Long story short, they punish the tank for having a good party. There is no reason why they cannot do aggro resets with the current model and enmity was generally generated by a Warrior with Unchained and or the rest of the party using their aggro reduction skills. Tanks stayed in DPS stance as much as possible.

Well, at level 50 Rage of Halone was always used. You also had Shield Swipe as an extra offglobal for blocks. I think most good DRKs only used Delirium before raidwides or hard magical tankbusters, they didn't keep it 100% uptime as it did less damage than the normal combo. You say unbalanced again...why is it unbalanced to you? Because all tanks do not have the same rotation and the same effects on the boss? Isn't that exactly what the players are criticizing?

Delirium was up 100% of the time. Damage wise, the combos went Dark Arts Soul Eater > Delirium > Soul Eater > Power Slash. You could not Dark Arts Soul Eater on every combo, so your next best was Delirium. The 100% uptime on Delirium was just part of the Dark Knights damage rotation. Same with Warrior, 100% uptime on Storm's Path, which mitigated everything. Paladin, no such luck. Might have a case if the Strength down was also 100% uptime, but it wasn't. The reason I say it was unbalanced is having a permanent damage reduction on everything causes issues balance wise. This isn't me, this is SE saying it. This is the whole reason they got rid of Protect as well. It is all about keeping a consistent incoming damage profile so that certain jobs were not favoured over others. Whether you agree with that mindset is your choice, but that is how SE balances things.

Yes traits are a way, but they probably don't want to balance for every 10 levels how the damage output should be. Maybe it would be easier to adjust monster stats in a certain level range, than each skill individually. I think damage taken should probably increase by 50-100% in very old dungeons/raids.

Most of the issues have come from potency scaling from before they added the traits. You could, in theory, go back to ARR, see what the potencies were, then copy them (taking into account the EW damage formula change for physical jobs). This would go a long way in reducing the damage done and preventing things from being melted. They cannot change everything though, as PLD never used to have damage on their AoE, so that is extra damage they cannot reasonably get rid of, but it does bring it in line with what Warrior had. It won't be perfect, but it would be better than we have now.

You have missed my point a little here. I didn’t say you can map every single GCD out, I said the expected cadence of the modern jobs is very static because they all follow the same rhythm. You open with a big burst, settle into filler, dump CD’s that can’t be held for the burst around 1 minute then burst again with all your stockpiled resources.

I could swear I read map out every GCD. Guess I'm seeing things.

However, what you have described is every job ever. Every job opened with burst damage, then followed by filler, then burstier phases. Not necessarily every minute, but they were there. Even the jobs that were more sustain had periods of increased damage. Monk, for example, with Internal Release and Blood for Blood, Summoner getting Raging Strikes etc. Even going into SB, this doesn't change. Jobs burst at the start, do their filler, burst when it comes up, the only difference is timing.

We could make a case for things not lining up as nicely on the jobs, for example, Riddle of Wind, Bunshin and Salted Earth all being 90 seconds do not line up with every period of burst, would more things like that help? Having one big burst at the start, followed be several mini bursts, each of which could be slightly different, followed by a big burst where everything lines up?

[HikariKurosawa]

It always boils down to the same argument, defenders of the current model will counter by saying that jobs (at least dps jobs) do all feel different because they have different vibes and also a different, distinct tactile feeling to play (which is true). Others will just retort that the general patterns, motifs and profiles are being homogenized (which is also true).

If the tactile feel was also being homogenized, like it is already notable for tanks, you'd not even be into the homogenization realm anymore, you'd be in the copy pasta realm. And if they removed the minute detail differences between an upgraded shadowed vigil and damnation, then you'd finally get your perfect carbon copies.

Unless they do away with raid buffs, jobs that have burst profiles that align with the timing of the raid buff windows will just be prioritized over those that don't. People think they know what they want, but in the end always optimize the fun out of the games. Square has currently more or less prevented this by making every job align with the same timing for their burst. That's how it should be.

I think they should even do away with 90 second cooldowns, and I don't even think that's a hot take. It's annoying to manage bunshin on nin. Maybe if it didn't cost ninki, but since it's an awkward timing that also costs resources to execute, I really just end up disliking it and it puts me off maining the job even though nin is my favorite gameplay out of any mmo job/class ever made.

This thread has made it pretty clear that people's main "issue" with "homogenization" is that it all falls into the same timing, but that's literally what makes this game good and keeps all jobs viable. Look at raiding in classic WoW, nearly everyone is a dps warrior because it's just that much better than every other choice. That's what you get when you don't design games properly. Snowflake job design ends up hurting the game more than it ends up bringing to the table. Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing. It's why people don't care about what job you play, because every job lines up with the raid buffs and is more or less balanced. Sure there are some problems like mch that likely need buffs, but even ranged phys has utility that other jobs just don't.

Like I said though, it is good that I made this thread. I finally understand where people are coming from. You think you know what you want, but you really don't. Burst profiles being aligned is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Supersnow845]

Unless they do away with raid buffs, jobs that have burst profiles that align with the timing of the raid buff windows will just be prioritized over those that don't. People think they know what they want, but in the end always optimize the fun out of the games. Square has currently more or less prevented this by making every job align with the same timing for their burst. That's how it should be.

I think they should even do away with 90 second cooldowns, and I don't even think that's a hot take. It's annoying to manage bunshin on nin. Maybe if it didn't cost ninki, but since it's an awkward timing that also costs resources to execute, I really just end up disliking it and it puts me off maining the job even though nin is my favorite gameplay out of any mmo job/class ever made.

This thread has made it pretty clear that people's main "issue" with "homogenization" is that it all falls into the same timing, but that's literally what makes this game good and keeps all jobs viable. Look at raiding in classic WoW, nearly everyone is a dps warrior because it's just that much better than every other choice. That's what you get when you don't design games properly. Snowflake job design ends up hurting the game more than it ends up bringing to the table. Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing. It's why people don't care about what job you play, because every job lines up with the raid buffs and is more or less balanced. Sure there are some problems like mch that likely need buffs, but even ranged phys has utility that other jobs just don't.

Like I said though, it is good that I made this thread. I finally understand where people are coming from. You think you know what you want, but you really don't. Burst profiles being aligned is a good thing, not a bad thing.

You’ve completely changed your entire point

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

If you wanted us to argue that what we have now isn’t good game design that’s what you should have asked, not gone “why is x the way it is?………yes you are right x is such good game design”

[Carighan]

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

Hey don't complain that people can't change their stance on something. Even if the only takeaway she got was the wrong one, ignoring all the other parts.

[HikariKurosawa]

You’ve completely changed your entire point

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

If you wanted us to argue that what we have now isn’t good game design that’s what you should have asked, not gone “why is x the way it is?………yes you are right x is such good game design”

????? Look at what I said in that post you just replied to. Specifically this part: "Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing."

You can't just say one word and mean another. Language has meaning, words have meaning. Don't say homogenization when you mean standardization. There's a big difference. Things can follow the same standard(2 minute burst meta), while also being completely different in execution(not homogenized). This is what we have now.

I've never once changed my stance, and this thread has always been about clarifying the complaints people have with the game. It's just funny because your complaints are literally directed toward what makes this game good and balanced. Goes to show that people will be unhappy no matter what. Even about things that are objectively good for the game's design. At least it should be clear to the devs now, and they likely already understand that when making games, you have to just learn to ignore a lot of people who complain.

[Supersnow845]

????? Look at what I said in that post you just replied to. Specifically this part: "Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing."

You can't just say one word and mean another. Language has meaning, words have meaning. Don't say homogenization when you mean standardization. There's a big difference. Things can follow the same standard(2 minute burst meta), while also being completely different in execution(not homogenized). This is what we have now.

I've never once changed my stance, and this thread has always been about clarifying the complaints people have with the game. It's just funny because your complaints are literally directed toward what makes this game good and balanced. Goes to show that people will be unhappy no matter what. Even about things that are objectively good for the game's design. At least it should be clear to the devs now, and they likely already understand that when making games, you have to just learn to ignore a lot of people who complain.

If you standardise something that was not standardised before you are bringing multiple things that were different and making them similar, that is literally the definition of homogenisation. Both represent an effort to “become more similar”, standardisation is usually just used exclusively for sets of rules and guidelines.

So if you are standardising a set of bursts that were not standardised you are in effect homogenising them. Playing around with synonyms to go “standardisation is when they do x homogenisation is when they do y” to make it sound like it’s not homogenisation is just poor sophistry

[HikariKurosawa]

If you standardise something that was not standardised before you are bringing multiple things that were different and making them similar, that is literally the definition of homogenisation. Both represent an effort to “become more similar”, standardisation is usually just used exclusively for sets of rules and guidelines.

So if you are standardising a set of bursts that were not standardised you are in effect homogenising them. Playing around with synonyms to go “standardisation is when they do x homogenisation is when they do y” to make it sound like it’s not homogenisation is just poor sophistry

Gonna have to agree to disagree then. At least I understand where you're coming from though, and so does anyone else reading this thread. Like I said though, and I'm only going to say this one last time: burst cooldown timing being the same has nothing to do with the form of activity during that window. It just means the windows for the jobs line up, which means jobs are all viable picks for all levels of content unless you're going for world firsts. Then you have to bring pictomancer, the most unique job in the entire game lol.