Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Valence]

This post is a good articulation, but it's also like "Wow I'm glad the game isn't like that anymore." It's also less about homogenization, and more about the gameplay becoming polished and refined rather than pedantic and offputting. To each their own, but I am truly glad the game has moved away from that direction. I don't enjoy the idea of having job meetings prior to pulling a boss over and over. That's not the complexity I like in gaming, and it's clear that the developers don't like it either. It makes the game unapproachable and way too niche to be successful.

If you guys want this niche type of gameplay, try making the game yourself. It's never going to be part of final fantasy xiv anymore.

I am never going to argue about tastes, but my fundamental problem is that the devs chose a model that drew in many players back in the days and chose to give us the middle finger after along the way. I am not okay with that.

[CNitsah]

reading the thread, I feel the real problem with homogenization... is term used that don't really convey the complaints. When you hear homogenization, you think "every job plays the same" like tanks do. But when you read people say, it's more about the design philosophy. Jobs (especially DPS) are different enough when it comes to how you play them, but yeah, they all are build around the same design principles.

I can see how some people think it's problem, but I really feel homogenization is not the right term. It also imply it was different in the past, but I feel except for a few jobs (like bard, that still isn't really build like anything else in the game, being the only "support" job) those principles were already there (granted, I only began il late stormblood, but it's usually considered the time the jobs were the best) and most jobs were already build around a basic 123 combo, with some different flavours, and a burst phase. The only things that that feels like homogenization is the 2 minutes meta that was implanted because the players asked for burst phases to be aligned. So knowing those principle were always there, can we really call that homogenization. A need to break the mold or a lack of design diversity sure, but homogenization? No wonder some people are so adamant about the fact it's not really there, because the term don't really convey the idea you guys are trying to defend.

[Supersnow845]

It’s not just synchronisation of burst it’s the profile of how the job originally functioned compared to now

The reason why the second most meta class in existence is NIN is because NIN bent the entire burst profile of other jobs around it with the existence of trick attack. Other jobs chopped and changed what they could to fit into NIN’s trick attack meta. This negatively affected the DOT’ers, the sustained DPS and the rampers. A lot of classes didn’t really have a defined burst window, you just kinda chopped and changed what you could to fit where depending on the fight. Because of this resource management was handled completely differently to how it was now and this played into the ability to design abilities that weren’t just “pool damage in the burst window”

The two minute meta SYNCHRONISED burst windows but it was ShB itself that favoured turning everything into having the burst. Changes such as divination on AST, introduction of DNC that had technical, removal of foes requiem on BRD you could functionally play when you wanted, addition of big burst attacks to jobs that didn’t care about burst like confitier on PLD, trimming down of SCH and SMN’s DOT’s which were hostile to bursting. MNK’s ShB redesign which became the EW design changed its ramping nature into a burster etc

And since they also started favouring the burst window they removed things that could interfere with one person’s burst over another so situational utility was pruned. Silent dusk, fey caress, time dilation, dark passenger the list of removed utility is endless because situational utility is useless when everyone has to be equaled allowed to perform their burst even though they didn’t used to because not everyone had a burst

The 2 minute meta isn’t really at fault, the main fault was the creation of the idea that every job had to have a burst and that’s homogenisation because it changed how many jobs felt to fit a narrow meta design built around NIN

[Exmo]

[Carighan]

The 2 minute meta isn’t really at fault, the main fault was the creation of the idea that every job had to have a burst and that’s homogenisation because it changed how many jobs felt to fit a narrow meta design built around NIN

This makes me wonder how I'd fix it. And I think I have an idea, but it's probably not something many players would like, and that is that effectively, party buffs are a goner. Unless they're like Reaper or Monk where there's a stacking self-benefit, that part can stay. Party-buffing effects can exist, but they're either part of normal rotation (like bard songs and dancer partner) or they're passive anyways and we already have those passive party-buffs for that, so no need to have those as job-effects.

This way, all party-augmenting stuff is active ~constantly. Which in turn means that burst, sustain, rampup and rampdown jobs can all be balanced against each other without the 20s-every-120s burst meta being backed into ~all character-to-character interactions in parties.

This does not mean a burst-based character cannot have effects affected other players, but these ought to intentionally be on a timing that no other job uses, forcefully desynchronizing them. Meaning that you cannot over-augment additional bursters non-linearly. Say a Dancer might have extra buffs on their partner every 100s for 10s, but that partner even if they're a ninja would not be able to keep that aligned as their burst is 15s every 120s, while say a reaper bursts 8s every 65s, etc etc.

[Mikey_R]

Been a bit busy, but I don't want to over inflate this post unnecessarily, so I will link the original post just above.

Commander_Justitia
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6638256

You never actually addressed any of the points I made. I asked what CC you could add that didn't destroy boss balance, you never answered. You also made a comment on having different combo enders, which you now claim you don't like? Conflicting statements where I think I'm missing something here.

To go over some other things, No, I do not could bleeds/poisons as CC, most skills just potency? Always has been, there is a reason they removed the CC from damage skills in the first place. Were 20% executes actually interesting (I don't think so). Piercing etc. resistance downs? Caused problems, especially when balancing out Phys Ranged where every other job it was just automatic in their rotations anyway, no thought about them required. Tank/dps stances didn't work in the way you seem to think they did (99% of the time, you were in DPS stance). Goring Blade only being used in burst? pretty much the same as it was in the past, where you aimed for 2 uses in burst, with 1 out of burst, no difference. Old old delirium (where it was a GCD) is an example of design that was limiting them. It was up 100% of the time and if they balanced damage around having it, when you didn't have it, things hit harder than intended, the same phenomenon happened with Warrior, this is also conflated with the fact this was part of their damage rotation. PLD didn't have the same luxuries so, if there happened to be a physical boss, you wouldn't expect PLD to use Rage of Halone. It was unbalanced.

If you want to balance jobs better at lower levels, add traits similar to what we have been getting since Endwalker. A trait that just generally buffs a bunch of actions potency wise. You can them alter it for balance at each level range and changing these traits won't affect anything before it or after the next equivalent trait.

Supersnow845
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6638300

I think you are conflating 2 different discussions here. From a healing/defensive point of view, yes, these things are directly tied to encounter design and how the damage is dealt. However, from a DPS point of view, whilst jobs have the same damage profile, that being the 2 minute meta, how they utilise that time period is different with the jobs. This is why I don't like it when people make generalised statements directed at the jobs when it should be directed elsewhere.

However, you didn't answer my question at the end. What would it actually take to make jobs feel different?

So, in 2 replies I have had, we have replies that don't answer the questions I asked and instead just rambled on about things I wasn't even talking about. To make it clear, the reason I ask questions in the first place was to get a better understanding of the person's mindset, how they think and why they might think in a certain way, all to try and foster a better discussion.

With that, so there can be no confusion, I will state here, clearly, what my position is. The 2 minute meta is bad. It has forced jobs to be moulded into a specific damage pattern that is quite rigid. HOWEVER, I do not believe that the way jobs handle the burst is the same, except for the need to line up with 2 minutes. Each job has different considerations to think about before, during and after the burst.

However, IF the 2 minute meta were to go and more damage profiles were to be made viable, would I want jobs to be reworked to better suit these damage profiles? Yes. There is no reason we cannot have burst heavy jobs, more sustain jobs, jobs with tight timings on burst, others being a bit looser in when they burst etc. We can bring the DoTs back (though I'm pretty sure they were reduced, along with other debuffs, because of the debuff limit on enemies).

And this is where I bring out the word nuance. Everyone saying the jobs play the same are directing their annoyance at the wrong thing. They should be criticising the root of the issue, the thing that has restricted job gameplay to a certain extent. The issue isn't the jobs, it is the mould.

...
This does not mean a burst-based character cannot have effects affected other players, but these ought to intentionally be on a timing that no other job uses, forcefully desynchronizing them. Meaning that you cannot over-augment additional bursters non-linearly. Say a Dancer might have extra buffs on their partner every 100s for 10s, but that partner even if they're a ninja would not be able to keep that aligned as their burst is 15s every 120s, while say a reaper bursts 8s every 65s, etc etc.

Whilst I agree with most of this, I would say you absolutely do NOT want any sort of temporary damage buff to be given out at all.

[Connor]

This makes me wonder how I'd fix it. And I think I have an idea, but it's probably not something many players would like, and that is that effectively, party buffs are a goner. Unless they're like Reaper or Monk where there's a stacking self-benefit, that part can stay. Party-buffing effects can exist, but they're either part of normal rotation (like bard songs and dancer partner) or they're passive anyways and we already have those passive party-buffs for that, so no need to have those as job-effects.

This way, all party-augmenting stuff is active ~constantly. Which in turn means that burst, sustain, rampup and rampdown jobs can all be balanced against each other without the 20s-every-120s burst meta being backed into ~all character-to-character interactions in parties.

This does not mean a burst-based character cannot have effects affected other players, but these ought to intentionally be on a timing that no other job uses, forcefully desynchronizing them. Meaning that you cannot over-augment additional bursters non-linearly. Say a Dancer might have extra buffs on their partner every 100s for 10s, but that partner even if they're a ninja would not be able to keep that aligned as their burst is 15s every 120s, while say a reaper bursts 8s every 65s, etc etc.

Isn’t this pretty much exactly what we have now anyway just with even less player engagement/involvement for the supporters? Either everything would be auto-buffs (which as primarily a support/healer class player makes me want to cancel my subscription and never look at this game again) on a 120 second cool-down or we’d go back to Stormblood and lock out anyone whose timers didn’t fit with the party.

If they somehow managed to give all 22 classes in the game completely unique timers with no overlap, I’d have to ask why the hell they’ve been acting like it takes 8 months for them to change a lightbulb when they can do things like this in a patch cycle

Whatever happened to support abilities with actual costs to the user? Why does everything has to be extremely long cooldowns that are effectively already auto-activates. Like, I remember when Bards could actually used their MP to support the party. Why can’t we do that anymore?*

* I’m well aware the reason is ‘the community cussed out the devs until they removed it all because they were pissed it got in the way of DPS’ing’

[Eraden]

Mao thinkings the root cause of all of this is boss fight design. ALL new boss fights now DDR. Is very predictable and is easy to add in burst phases. Only real requirements for such fights is good memorization skills and ability to do mobile DPS. Is borings and soulless. Is not what Mao considers adventures in spirit of fantasy RPG. What is needed in order for to keep jobs from continuing to becomes more samey is boss fights with lots random elements in thems.

[Carighan]

Whilst I agree with most of this, I would say you absolutely do NOT want any sort of temporary damage buff to be given out at all.

Yeah, of course that'd be the clean fix. If I were the designer I'd at least try an intentionally-desynced-and-usually-single-only buff setup first though, can always transition to the full fix later.

[Mikey_R]

ALL new boss fights now DDR.

What do you mean 'now'? Boss fights have always been DDR, even back in ARR. You know what a boss is going to do and in what order. In that aspect, nothing has changed. Even if a mechanic has some RNG to it, whether it be in/out or stack/spread, it is still predictable when it happens.

If you disagree, please, provide some examples of past fights that did not feel like they were a scripted DDR encounter.