Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[HikariKurosawa]

It always boils down to the same argument, defenders of the current model will counter by saying that jobs (at least dps jobs) do all feel different because they have different vibes and also a different, distinct tactile feeling to play (which is true). Others will just retort that the general patterns, motifs and profiles are being homogenized (which is also true).

If the tactile feel was also being homogenized, like it is already notable for tanks, you'd not even be into the homogenization realm anymore, you'd be in the copy pasta realm. And if they removed the minute detail differences between an upgraded shadowed vigil and damnation, then you'd finally get your perfect carbon copies.

Unless they do away with raid buffs, jobs that have burst profiles that align with the timing of the raid buff windows will just be prioritized over those that don't. People think they know what they want, but in the end always optimize the fun out of the games. Square has currently more or less prevented this by making every job align with the same timing for their burst. That's how it should be.

I think they should even do away with 90 second cooldowns, and I don't even think that's a hot take. It's annoying to manage bunshin on nin. Maybe if it didn't cost ninki, but since it's an awkward timing that also costs resources to execute, I really just end up disliking it and it puts me off maining the job even though nin is my favorite gameplay out of any mmo job/class ever made.

This thread has made it pretty clear that people's main "issue" with "homogenization" is that it all falls into the same timing, but that's literally what makes this game good and keeps all jobs viable. Look at raiding in classic WoW, nearly everyone is a dps warrior because it's just that much better than every other choice. That's what you get when you don't design games properly. Snowflake job design ends up hurting the game more than it ends up bringing to the table. Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing. It's why people don't care about what job you play, because every job lines up with the raid buffs and is more or less balanced. Sure there are some problems like mch that likely need buffs, but even ranged phys has utility that other jobs just don't.

Like I said though, it is good that I made this thread. I finally understand where people are coming from. You think you know what you want, but you really don't. Burst profiles being aligned is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Supersnow845]

Unless they do away with raid buffs, jobs that have burst profiles that align with the timing of the raid buff windows will just be prioritized over those that don't. People think they know what they want, but in the end always optimize the fun out of the games. Square has currently more or less prevented this by making every job align with the same timing for their burst. That's how it should be.

I think they should even do away with 90 second cooldowns, and I don't even think that's a hot take. It's annoying to manage bunshin on nin. Maybe if it didn't cost ninki, but since it's an awkward timing that also costs resources to execute, I really just end up disliking it and it puts me off maining the job even though nin is my favorite gameplay out of any mmo job/class ever made.

This thread has made it pretty clear that people's main "issue" with "homogenization" is that it all falls into the same timing, but that's literally what makes this game good and keeps all jobs viable. Look at raiding in classic WoW, nearly everyone is a dps warrior because it's just that much better than every other choice. That's what you get when you don't design games properly. Snowflake job design ends up hurting the game more than it ends up bringing to the table. Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing. It's why people don't care about what job you play, because every job lines up with the raid buffs and is more or less balanced. Sure there are some problems like mch that likely need buffs, but even ranged phys has utility that other jobs just don't.

Like I said though, it is good that I made this thread. I finally understand where people are coming from. You think you know what you want, but you really don't. Burst profiles being aligned is a good thing, not a bad thing.

You’ve completely changed your entire point

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

If you wanted us to argue that what we have now isn’t good game design that’s what you should have asked, not gone “why is x the way it is?………yes you are right x is such good game design”

[Carighan]

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

Hey don't complain that people can't change their stance on something. Even if the only takeaway she got was the wrong one, ignoring all the other parts.

[HikariKurosawa]

You’ve completely changed your entire point

Originally everything we said was “not homogenisation” in your eyes

Now what we say is basically just good game game design

If you wanted us to argue that what we have now isn’t good game design that’s what you should have asked, not gone “why is x the way it is?………yes you are right x is such good game design”

????? Look at what I said in that post you just replied to. Specifically this part: "Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing."

You can't just say one word and mean another. Language has meaning, words have meaning. Don't say homogenization when you mean standardization. There's a big difference. Things can follow the same standard(2 minute burst meta), while also being completely different in execution(not homogenized). This is what we have now.

I've never once changed my stance, and this thread has always been about clarifying the complaints people have with the game. It's just funny because your complaints are literally directed toward what makes this game good and balanced. Goes to show that people will be unhappy no matter what. Even about things that are objectively good for the game's design. At least it should be clear to the devs now, and they likely already understand that when making games, you have to just learn to ignore a lot of people who complain.

[Supersnow845]

????? Look at what I said in that post you just replied to. Specifically this part: "Jobs are already extremely unique in this game, like I said before: the same timing is not the same activity. It's just good standardization. There's a big difference between the word standardization and the word homogenization. That's what this game really has going on with it too. That's why I was so confused about how people keep talking about homogenization, because there really isn't a problem with homogenization in this game. The standardization of burst windows though, yes, this is a real thing."

You can't just say one word and mean another. Language has meaning, words have meaning. Don't say homogenization when you mean standardization. There's a big difference. Things can follow the same standard(2 minute burst meta), while also being completely different in execution(not homogenized). This is what we have now.

I've never once changed my stance, and this thread has always been about clarifying the complaints people have with the game. It's just funny because your complaints are literally directed toward what makes this game good and balanced. Goes to show that people will be unhappy no matter what. Even about things that are objectively good for the game's design. At least it should be clear to the devs now, and they likely already understand that when making games, you have to just learn to ignore a lot of people who complain.

If you standardise something that was not standardised before you are bringing multiple things that were different and making them similar, that is literally the definition of homogenisation. Both represent an effort to “become more similar”, standardisation is usually just used exclusively for sets of rules and guidelines.

So if you are standardising a set of bursts that were not standardised you are in effect homogenising them. Playing around with synonyms to go “standardisation is when they do x homogenisation is when they do y” to make it sound like it’s not homogenisation is just poor sophistry

[Namir]

I see this word thrown around a lot but I don't think you know what it means.

Please educate me on how jobs are homogenized in this game.

Make sure you are fully articulate and explain your reasoning clearly and thoroughly.

People need to let this thread die already. It’s obvious from the very first post that OP isn’t interested in “clarifying” or understanding, or even debating anything. Hence why he said “educate me on homogenization” while at the same time saying “I don’t think you know what it means”. Now why would you want to be educated about a subject by people you think don’t know what the subject means, pray tell?

Let the OP have his dose of validation thinking he did a good thing (he keeps repeating over and over how amazing of a thing it is that he made this thread so that single handedly this will let the devs and a ton of other people know… something) and move on. No use discussing anything with someone that is just looking to prove you wrong, not actually trying to understand anything outside himself.

[HikariKurosawa]

People need to let this thread die already. It’s obvious from the very first post that OP isn’t interested in “clarifying” or understanding, or even debating anything. Hence why he said “educate me on homogenization” while at the same time saying “I don’t think you know what it means”. Now why would you want to be educated about a subject by people you think don’t know what the subject means, pray tell?

Let the OP have his dose of validation thinking he did a good thing (he keeps repeating over and over how amazing of a thing it is that he made this thread so that single handedly this will let the devs and a ton of other people know… something) and move on. No use discussing anything with someone that is just looking to prove you wrong, not actually trying to understand anything outside himself.

I agree, this thread has served its purpose and yes, it did serve it well.

I never was looking to argue or debate anything. I wanted to hear the perspective clarified, and I did. It's to understand where people are coming from and have it out there for everyone to read.

Don't be upset that after understanding where you're coming from that I think your opinion is bad and invalid. At least I know where you're coming from when I didn't before.

[Carighan]

I never was looking to argue or debate anything.

Thread was flamebaiting, got it. TY for confirming. Block it is.

[HikariKurosawa]

Thread was flamebaiting, got it. TY for confirming. Block it is.

I mean I couldn't care less about what you think. I made the thread for the reason I have been saying over and over: I didn't understand where the job homogenization angle was coming from since the jobs in this game are all wildly different, and I wanted clarity.

Every post you make is dog tier and I've never taken you seriously or respected your positions in or out of this thread, so good for you?

Fact is, 2 minute meta =/= problematic or even homogenization. It's just how balance works. You are out of touch with what is good for the game, so go ahead and block me little person.

[Mikey_R]

I mean I couldn't care less about what you think. I made the thread for the reason I have been saying over and over: I didn't understand where the job homogenization angle was coming from since the jobs in this game are all wildly different, and I wanted clarity.

...

Fact is, 2 minute meta =/= problematic or even homogenization. It's just how balance works. You are out of touch with what is good for the game, so go ahead and block me little person.

Whilst I agree with the first point, jobs do play differently, the thing people have an issue with is the fact they all follow the strict 2 minute meta, with the vast majority of jobs also having a smaller burst every odd minute.

However, this does not mean that it is the only way to balance jobs. In a 100% uptime fight, you can balance between a sustained DPS and a more burst centric DPS. The absolute easiest way to do this is to get rid of all raid damage cooldowns, essentially making all jobs selfish. Whilst this allows for all damage profiles to be viable, not everyone wants to have that, they want to feel they are contributing to the team in another way. This is why if you allow raid buffs, having them up 100% of the time is a good solution, as it doesn't favour one particular time for burst damage at all.

Another alternative is to weaken the raid buffs and make them line up less. In the past, all buffs only lined up every 6 minutes, mainly down to the 90 seconds and 180 seconds buffs that some jobs had. With fewer buff windows and them being weaker, you reduce the impact they have on the job's overall damage.

So, whilst you might not see the 2 minute meta as an issue, to many, it is and there are ways around it.