Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[HikariKurosawa]

I see this word thrown around a lot but I don't think you know what it means.

Please educate me on how jobs are homogenized in this game.

Make sure you are fully articulate and explain your reasoning clearly and thoroughly.

[Supersnow845]

I tried to do it on the other post that was done so I’ll try it again here

Classes in an MMO can be defined by their damage profile (I don’t mean tanks healers DPS support) I mean how their damage is applied and the change in the rate it applies over the course of the fight. There are in my mind 5 “classical” damage profiles in an MMO

1) builder spender- builds a lot of resources using filler then dumps them all within a particular window

2) Sustained damage- doesn’t really care about anyone else just does consistent damage over the fight

3) ramper- has to set themselves up and work towards their eventual higher damage

4) DOT’er/debuffer- focuses on sustained damage via application of damaging debuffs

5) buffer- focuses the overwhelming majority of time and space on buffing others DPS, has little to no self damage


Now let’s looks at the 14 jobs. If we go back to “classical 14” (ie the HW era) these distinctions were far more defined. SCH and SMN were DOT’ers, BLM and PLD were sustained, NIN was a builder spender, MNK was a ramper, AST was a buffer etc. all of the jobs had unique damage profiles that led to unique minute to minute gameplay

Now contrast this with the modern jobs. Every single job in this game (arguably sans SGE) has a massive nuke that is designed explicitly to be pressed once per 2 minutes (or per minute for the tanks). And every job that has a mechanic to buff others damage has that buff out on exactly a 2 minute CD. More and more skills have been altered to allow to stacking into a 2 minute burst (enshroud and awakening having 100 gauge despite needing 50 to burst encouraging triple use of the burst because the 2 minute button gives you a “burst again button”)/lilys being neutral so they are a gain to sync with the buff window and dump misery/moves getting charged allowing you to hold charges for the burst window such as phlegma.

In short everything has coalesced around the two minute burst window and since buffs are multiplicative the burst window becomes so strong that the other styles of combat become unable to keep up and get changed to fit into the buff meta (this is why PLD was redone in EW) Every change they give BLM is designed to push more potency into the burst window so they can burst better (such as 3 charges of xeno and 2 leylines to always keep it aligned with the burst window). Our two DOT’ers basically lost their DOT’s and are now generic buff feeder jobs with pointless buffs and burst focused rotations (SMN especially). The rampers now basically just get buttons that allows them to burst immediately (such as plentiful harvest on RPR) and the buffers have been reduced from meaningful buff maintenance to generic big buffs in the burst window and set and forget buffs outside of it (DNC, BRD and AST)

So in short every job is now just a flavour of builder spender because the only thing that matters is the 2 minute burst window This has also led to the removal of meaningful utility. Between 21 classes we literally have ONE skill that fits the bill of true utility; expedient. Without utility and an overwhelming focus on damage with no alternatives the jobs feel flat and stale, nobody but SCH can offer anything to the party that’s not just a flavour of damage because every ability is either “I do damage” “I make someone else do damage” or “I make the boss hit us for less damage”

Now since every job focuses on building for the two minute window every job hates downtime and hates two target cleave (sans PCT) because the way they have been designed means they really only work in full uptime 2 single target savage and basically every other fight design is just “compensation” for their inherent flaws (jobs like RPR hate not getting gauge in downtime, SAM can’t get stickers etc)


So basically every job has been shoved down into a generic builder spender that only functions on full uptime single target, hates downtime and the majority of its potency comes from big disconnected nukes you press in the burst window. That’s why every job feels homogenised

[HikariKurosawa]

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So what you're saying is that the timing of the job's climax moments is what is homogenized and everything else is very different? This is just how it has to be in a game with raid buffs and mechanics on timers. The two minute burst window is not job homogenization. Having the same timing for the busiest and most impactful moments is not the same gameplay.

It's like going into an icecream store, seeing 27 very different flavors and calling it homogenized because it's all icecream. Of course it's icecream.

[Supersnow845]

So what you're saying is that the timing of the job's climax moments is what is homogenized and everything else is very different? This is just how it has to be in a game with raid buffs and mechanics on timers. The two minute burst window is not job homogenization. Having the same timing for the busiest and most impactful moments is not the same gameplay.

It's like going into an icecream store, seeing 27 very different flavors and calling it homogenized because it's all icecream. Of course it's icecream.

No it’s like going to a dessert store and seeing 27 different flavours of ice cream and nothing else

Where is my cheesecake, my mudcake, my doughnuts and my chocolate dishes

Like honestly did you even read my post. I clearly explained that the modern 2 minute meta has ruined job profiles in this game. You can’t play a DOT’er in this game, you can’t play a ramper. You play a builder spender and that’s it’s because the 2 minute meta doesn’t allow anything else to function in the modern job design

[HikariKurosawa]

No it’s like going to a dessert store and seeing 27 different flavours of ice cream and nothing else

Where is my cheesecake, my mudcake, my doughnuts and my chocolate dishes

Like honestly did you even read my post. I clearly explained that the modern 2 minute meta has ruined job profiles in this game. You can’t play a DOT’er in this game, you can’t play a ramper. You play a builder spender and that’s it’s because the 2 minute meta doesn’t allow anything else to function in the modern job design

I did read your post. I'm not going to take the time to address every single thing you said. I don't agree with the majority of it and addressed what was necessary.

[NegativeS]

Took me a minute to find the post, but this sums it up pretty well...

I'm going to pick two random DoW DPS jobs and go over their rotation. Let's see... VPR, MCH.

VPR: 123 single target combo, or 123 AOE combo. With some variation depending on which button lights up. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting combo, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' combo.
MCH: 123 single target combo. No AOE combo, just one ability plus another that you use off cooldown. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting ability, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' ability.

Okay, two random DoW tank jobs. WAR and DRK.

WAR: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button in your combo to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful attack, or you use a different ability to use this attack anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.
DRK: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful combo, or you use a different ability to use this combo anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

They can make jobs look as different as they want, and they've done a good job doing so. But, as a person who has played several years, if they stripped all the art and flavor off of every attack and only left the combos and damage, I wouldn't have a clue what job I was playing. Maybe the larger range would give away that I was playing MCH compared to VPR, but you get the point, I'm sure.

(Note: While doing this I did try this with DoM DPS jobs and noted that they are pretty unique, which is why I would guess they are so popular. So, one point for SE. No point in doing it for healers since a healer's rotation is not really set in stone because of healing being reactionary, but I would be glad to go over how similar their builds are if requested)

[HikariKurosawa]

Took me a minute to find the post, but this sums it up pretty well...

Yeah, it's no wonder the devs don't listen to this community lol. This thread is playing out exactly like I thought it would. Glad I made it because it's good to expose the "homogenization" angle for what it is.

[NegativeS]

Yeah, it's no wonder the devs don't listen to this community lol. This thread is playing out exactly like I thought it would. Glad I made it because it's good to expose the "homogenization" angle for what it is.

Alright, well, considering I already had this entire conversation with another different inflammatory forumgoer (sorry diadeem mwah) in two separate threads, I'll just say I hope you find whatever fulfillment you were looking for when you made this thread, cuz I'm not doing it again.

[HikariKurosawa]

Alright, well, considering I already had this entire conversation with another different inflammatory forumgoer (sorry diadeem mwah) in two separate threads, I'll just say I hope you find whatever fulfillment you were looking for when you made this thread, cuz I'm not doing it again.

You didn't really do anything though you just quoted your own extremely disingenuous post that failed to elaborate or explain specific examples of homogenization. Good on you for knowing when to quit though.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

You're clearly not interested in arguing in good faith, but the question is still worth answering for other readers.

Homogenization is a process/direction, not an absolute state. You could also call it "convergence". The opposite would be divergence, in which things become less and less alike over time, kind of like the process of speciation in evolution.

In your ice cream example, it's pretty meaningless to accuse an ice cream store of being "homogenized" without knowledge of their previous offerings. Maybe they always served a handful of basic flavors and have actually branched out over the years, maybe they started off with dozens of unusual flavors but discontinued most of them in an attempt to cut costs and appeal to more mainstream tastes.

So, when we compare the game's current job offerings to those of previous expansions, do we see convergence, or do we see divergence?

Let's just go back one expansion and look at some of the changes that took place between 6.0 and 7.1.

• SAM: Removed Kaiten, changed AoEs from cones to circles, changed subame-gaeshi from stacks to a proc.
  
• NIN: Changed their party debuff to 120s, removed movement constraints on TCJ, reworked their gauge.
  
• DRG: Removed Life of the Dragon, removed Dragon Sight, removed eyes/Geirskogul + Mirage interactions, removed positionals, removed Nastrond cooldowns and then Nastrond stacks, removed spineshatter drives.
  
• MNK: Removed their dot/buffs, which allowed for variable burst windows, and replaced them with a fixed "follow the glowing button" rotation that you just repeat forever.
  
• VPR: Removed their debuff and replaced it with a fixed "follow the glowing button" rotation that you just repeat forever.
  
• SMN: Removed pet management, removed dots, removed, well... just about everything.
  
• RDM: Removed the decay effect from Embolden, removed the multiplication effect from Manafication, removed Disengagement optimization.
  
• BLM: Removed almost all alternative spells lines, removed sharpcast, removed thundercloud in favor of a glorified (vilified?) healer dot, increased the number of instant-cast spells.
  
• PLD: Removed physical/magic phases, removed the dot, and completely reworked the rotation so it functioned as yet another 60s burst job.
  
• AST: Removed pretty much every mechanic involving your cards. No more redrawing, no collecting signs, no more RNG, period.
  
• WHM/SCH: reduced all offensive spell cast times to be 1.5s, like AST.
  
• DNC: Removed most of the RNG from your burst in favor of a mostly fixed sequence.

I'll simply ask you this: name a single example of a change that was made to an existing job in the past three years that made it play less like the other jobs in its role. I provided over 20 examples of convergence, so certainly it shouldn't be that hard to think of a single example of divergence (hard mode: no SCH).