The game needs to open up

[RaideDuku]

The biggest contributor to that is probably duty finder. I don't think people are actually that averse to interesting dungeons. The speedrun mentality came from dungeon and content design, not the other way around. FF14 is very static. The core of battle content is rerunning the same dungeons over and over and the high skill endgame is running the same raids over and over. Players haven't even really had a chance to experience much else.

I mean... when you boil in down, isn't that how all MMOs are? In most cases, MMO dungeons tend to be static. Sure, you can add flags and difficulty settings to mix things up, but at the end of the day it's the same dungeon with the same goal: get in, get the reward, get out as fast and efficiently as possible. Its just human nature to do things the quickest and most efficient way possible. If you can buy honey at a store, you don't go wandering around a forest, looking for beehives to smash your face in.

The only way to have a true explorative experience every time you go into a dungeon is to have a new layout for the dungeon each time. There has been mmos that have played around with procedurally generated dungeons. Anarchy Online, City of Heroes/Villains, even deep dungeons in FFXIV. All have been, in general, fairly lacking, mostly due to modular systems that MMOs use to do the generating.

[Commander_Justitia]

Well, yeah... All the MMO in the Top 5 are all around 10 years old at least (with WoW being 20 years all) XD

maybe Chrono Odyssey in a year, looks more like a dark souls gameplay as mmorpg, but they need to show more gameplay

Blue Protocol doesnt even leave Asia, they end it.

So yeah, it is hard making good MMORPGs and keeping them relevant.

[TaleraRistain]

Makes sense. Although the no quest marker, while true of older games, was mostly taken from Elden ring in my case, a modern success story. Questing in that game was not easy but people seemed to love the game for it.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Elden Ring is a singleplayer game that appeals to a certain demographic of players. That sort of player looks for things like no quest marker.

Do you know what would happen if XIV took away the quest markers? In no time flat after expansion drop, someone would have a mod putting them back in. There would be websites with coordinates so players could get their questing done quickly and easily. XIV players and a lot of modern MMO players in general like QoL features. MMOS were very niche 25 years ago. The thing that made them more widespread was accessibility. So the things that old school MMO designers put in to lengthen the time someone had to play the game, like difficult travel or obscure quest references and no map markers, fell to the wayside because that wasn't what was going to make their MMO attractive anymore.

[Ath192]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Elden Ring is a singleplayer game that appeals to a certain demographic of players. That sort of player looks for things like no quest marker.

Do you know what would happen if XIV took away the quest markers? In no time flat after expansion drop, someone would have a mod putting them back in. There would be websites with coordinates so players could get their questing done quickly and easily. XIV players and a lot of modern MMO players in general like QoL features. MMOS were very niche 25 years ago. The thing that made them more widespread was accessibility. So the things that old school MMO designers put in to lengthen the time someone had to play the game, like difficult travel or obscure quest references and no map markers, fell to the wayside because that wasn't what was going to make their MMO attractive anymore.

I played elden ring, everyone I know that plays FFXIV played Elden ring, except 1 person actually. Plenty of older MMOs didn't have quest markers either as people have pointed out. Did you play elden ring?

We can extrapolate the following information from this:
1. Elden ring appeals to a similar demographic of fantasy RPG players since even Yoshi P released Dawntrail by 1 week after Elden ring so his playerbase could have time to play it.
2. It's clear players are no longer enjoying FFXIV being so accessible it no longer has any difficulty or engaging content or interesting jobs
3. Things have changed, QOL features no longer make this MMO attractive and instead players are clamoring for gameplay and depth

Simply put, they have made the game so "convenient" you don't even have to play it most of the month you pay your subscription for it. Nothing is static, and tastes change, even in the MMO world.

[PyurBlue]

I mean... when you boil in down, isn't that how all MMOs are? In most cases, MMO dungeons tend to be static. Sure, you can add flags and difficulty settings to mix things up, but at the end of the day it's the same dungeon with the same goal: get in, get the reward, get out as fast and efficiently as possible. Its just human nature to do things the quickest and most efficient way possible. If you can buy honey at a store, you don't go wandering around a forest, looking for beehives to smash your face in.

Well that is one problem I have with gameplay built around rewards in general, though putting that aside, it's not always true that people aim to do things as efficiently as possible. Have you never tried to cook something yourself just to try it? Have you ever been out and taken a turn off the path you were intending to go down just to explore? When players are being gatekept by things like XP, drip fed gear, and timed lockouts I'm not surprised that they try to minimize the time it takes to reach the end. The experience isn't the reward, it's a time sink to prevent you from moving on even if you're starting to get bored.

This is usually the opposite of what a MMO game uses to entice new players. The pitch is typically trying to sell prospective players on the idea of going on a grand adventure with surprises and interesting events along the way. FF14 definitely does this in its advertising and while the MSQ has its fair share of interesting plot, it along with the rest of the game is a bit too rigid to deliver on the promise that the advertising tries to sell. You don't get a world to explore. You get a predetermined story to sit through. That story can be good, it can even be fantastic, but it will never be the same kind of adventure that is being used to attract players in the first place. At least that's how I see it.

The only way to have a true explorative experience every time you go into a dungeon is to have a new layout for the dungeon each time. There has been mmos that have played around with procedurally generated dungeons. Anarchy Online, City of Heroes/Villains, even deep dungeons in FFXIV. All have been, in general, fairly lacking, mostly due to modular systems that MMOs use to do the generating.

What's needed is uncertainty. As great as procedural layouts would be, they aren't the only design choice that fosters variety. Fixed dungeons like those we have now could be improved with enemies and items in different positions. You mentioned earlier that players would try to optimize spawn points, but that's only going to work if those spawn points are very limited and predictable. Player starting points would have to be limited for most existing dungeon layouts, but enemy placement would be nearly entirely free. Interactions with the environment is another idea, what if a path that was initially clear is blocked off after a boss fight because of fallen debris?

Dungeon variety is only part of the problem though because if everything is a reward treadmill the content eventually becomes tedious. I think what MMO's need is to lean more heavily into of the promise of a world to adventure in. Tell a story that captures players' attentions and gets them invested and then build content that gives those players some agency over the world. Have players grown attached to the losing side in a war and want to help them? Instead of locking the fate of the conflict to the narrative, let player actions have some impact. They can fight the aggressive side or craft items for the losing side and eventually if enough is done the aggressor can be persuaded to give up.

This is absolutely more complex than using copy and paste on similar instances with minor aesthetic changes over and over while artificially limiting progress behind many different progress or resource bars. I'm well aware of that. I still want the more fun option.

[Hyperia]

I would love to have an open world dungeon where we are in a normal zone, people can see us running it but can’t interact and we can’t see them. It would reuse zones, make them feel more alive and mix up the formula.

Imagine having the ShB rescue Ryne quest but instead of solo, it’s 4 player. Way more interesting than some cave underground for the 100th time.

[RaideDuku]

blip

Made a few points, so here we go.

1. A game has to have to have rewards in order to keep people interested. Perhaps if a MMO could be the size of an actual planet, you could simply have exploration as it's own rewards. However, MMOs are limited. Eventually, the available landmass will be explored, its secrets found, and unless there are rewards, people won't come back. If folks sailed halfway around the world and found a new landmass, sure they'd be excited. But if there's absolutely nothing of worth there, they ain't staying, and they ain't coming back.

2. As far as how you want dungeons. Variant dungeons. Well, with a few enhancements, but yeah, you want variant dungeons. Thing is, if you let people pick the paths they take, once they've done all the paths, they're going to just pick the most efficient one to get the rewards they want to get. If you take away that choice, make it random... well...really all you're doing is sticking people in a hallway and rearranging the furniture. Might keep people a little more interested for a bit longer...but they will eventually realize this sooner rather then later.

That being said, I'd still love it if all dungeons were made like variant dungeons. I just realize the variance would have a limit on how much it can...um...vary.

[Hyperia]

That being said, I'd still love it if all dungeons were made like variant dungeons. I just realize the variance would have a limit on how much it can...um...vary.

I would love it if our expert dungeons were variant style and the route you got was random every time. Not a daily random but a true roll a D7 for route upon every start.

[xbahax92]

No, you have to ask yourself the following : Why Old School Sandbox MMO type have died?

I'm an old MMO player, i started on EverQuest in 1999.... And seriously, people who never experienced those type of content, should never ask for it.
The reason? Simple : The Players....

Sandbox MMO tend to generate a ton of griefer (Stealth Boss Claim, Mob Train to whipe a party and take their XP spot, PK that would make look like serial killer as casual etc... etc...)

Seriously, what you asking is either a new FF MMO or to kill FFXIV.... because the majority of modern MMO players only know Theme Park MMO and, most of them, wouldn't be able to adapt to the way more harsher environment that Sandbox MMO deliver..

It sounds to me like, "I had a bad experience in the past, so let’s not try again." Devs shouldn’t stop trying new things just because there might be some discrepancies.
This game has never catered to just one specific audience, and it doesn’t now.

CBU3 doesn’t need to reinvent the wheel, but it should be possible to create new types of content that also appeal to casual players.

[Lorika]

It sounds to me like, "I had a bad experience in the past, so let’s not try again."

Oh no, i fully enjoyed it! In fact, at the base, i'm a Full PvP MMO player.

It's just that i really think that most Modern MMO Player, who only ever played Theme Park MMO, would have a really hard time to adapt to the far more harsher environment that a SandBox MMO deliver and, it will lead to the inevitable whine and ask for more easiest content.

So, i saiy it again : If you never experienced SandBox/Old School MMO content, you shoudn't ask fo it.... After all, players always want what they don't want.