How should they address the disparity within the role?

[Azurarok]

FRU world race comps, unsurprisingly, largely had AST/SCH for their healers. WHM got a few uses but as far as I can tell there are no SGEs among the top 20 parties.

Obviously AST/SCH have raid buffs in a heavily 2m burst meta, but even without them they both have better healing toolkits than WHM/SGE for the way content is designed, so there isn't really a reason to use the latter outside how comfortable they are at using said jobs, though afaik it's not bad enough to lock them out of PF so far.

The rDPS disparity can probably be addressed by doing stuff like upping WHM/SGE's potencies and reducing the buff amount on AST/SCH, but what else could be done to make them worth having to the party?

[Carighan]

Honestly if the tiny minority that du ultimate prog is the only situation in which your healers unbalance, you ought to get time off as a developer, you've done ~perfect work. That's such a marginal imbalance (and you'll always have imbalance, everything else is 110% utopian to assume), it really has no bearing.

[Rithy255]

I feel like at this point we got to look at sage and white mage and ask what do they offer over their counterparts Scholar and Astro, even healing/utility kits on Ast/Sch are way stronger then utility on whm/sage.

I do actually think a part of that is current healer design is so static that mild variance in damage & utility will just make a clear choice, theirs also a question with astro that should a top end astro player be rewarded compared to a white mage, previously i might have been against that but now I think white mage should be a lot closer in total damage due to not having to jump through as much hoops as astro to get there.

Sage and Scholar is a conversation where Scholar just out classes Sage's kit because both classes were closely designed but Scholar brings more vital and a more stronger kit then Sage, even if sage feels more refined and less annoying to use in comparison.

Ideally healers should have more different/stronger niches, its a problem relating to making every job relative to each other which healer has been the most known for doing this out of anything else, so the choice is obvious even when the differences aren't that massive.

[GrimGale]

healers should have more different/stronger niches

To have "niches" you need gameplay variability. All of the encounters are mostly "move here then here", "hit boss", "restore HP/mitigate"- There are no other meaningful mechanics beyond do the dance and mitigate then fill bars up. No status effects, no CC, no unique buffs to apply or debuffs to handle. Utility and its niches have been steadily been removed- You can't have uniquely designed jobs because the game has been designing them away in order for every job to be able to tackle all the content.

[Rithy255]

To have "niches" you need gameplay variability. All of the encounters are mostly "move here then here", "hit boss", "restore HP/mitigate"- There are no other meaningful mechanics beyond do the dance and mitigate then fill bars up. No status effects, no CC, no unique buffs to apply or debuffs to handle. Utility and its niches have been steadily been removed- You can't have uniquely designed jobs because the game has been designing them away in order for every job to be able to tackle all the content.

Look how well that's been going you can never design a game to be 100% balanced, getting rid of what made every job fun and different has been pointless because now your just playing different versions of the same job, but people still only bring the "good jobs" despite how much we have had to cater to removing job Identity for the sake of people at the highest end wanting to play any job. People now just mostly define what job is "meta" by dps numbers.

Ultimately I'm not arguing that making Jobs more fun and different would make the game more Balanced, but this approach we've had for three expansions now has clearly not properly worked if we're still discussing why some jobs are too bad or too good.

No amount of making every job play the same will stop people from optimising the game and wanting "meta" jobs over "non meta jobs". I personally would rather go back to having more fun and creative Jobs, what's the point of having a more boring game because we're trying to cater to a impossible task.

[Carighan]

I mean on paper the niches are easy:

* AST and WHM are focused more on regen and re-healing.
* Meanwhile SCH and SGE are focused on pre-emptive mitigation.
* Also AST and SCH are focused more on utility effects and "tricks".
* Meanwhile SGE and WHM are focused more on raw output and "power".

The funny thing is, this works except for two spanners the devs "usual" pitfalls throw into this, and sadly for Ultimate purposes they entirely break the balance setup's back:

* The extra power in healing exists, but with how meaningless maximum healing output is - since you virtually never want to get caught in a situation where that is needed, you want to heal it all with your CDs - it just has absolutely no bearing on effective use.
* For balancing reasons they opted to make the damage output the same, which doesn't work as due to their niche, WHM and SGE would need to deal more even with the extra RDPS from cards/debuff included (and Picto being so OP also indirectly adds more AST/SCH damage and this would automatically be fixed if they finally curb PCT damage and downtime enjoyment).

But yeah, on paper it's easy. AST and SCH bring all kinds of cool utilities, but WHM and SGE heal and nuke for more. Meanwhile AST and WHM can re-heal, SCH and SGE can "pre-heal". Easy.

[Azurarok]

That sounds about right. You inevitably still have to do some casted heals in prog or with lower item levels, which is personal dps lost, and buffs scale better on the other end with parties with better gearing and practice as well, so SGE/WHM should have significantly higher personal dps than the other two to make up for both cases.

I've also been thinking lately that AST's buffs being as good as they are should've only been allowed with the RNG. Have less consistency than WHM but higher output when the RNG's good, and have ways to minimize the lows of bad RNG with more effort.

[IDontPetLalas]

That sounds about right. You inevitably still have to do some casted heals in prog or with lower item levels, which is personal dps lost, and buffs scale better on the other end with parties with better gearing and practice as well, so SGE/WHM should have significantly higher personal dps than the other two to make up for both cases.

I've also been thinking lately that AST's buffs being as good as they are should've only been allowed with the RNG. Have less consistency than WHM but higher output when the RNG's good, and have ways to minimize the lows of bad RNG with more effort.

So, think about what you just said, and then think about how you would feel about doing anything when levelling or solo content as an AST. Would it sound like an improvement, or even more painful.

Because after having several (less than successful) reworks, this is one question that people often don't ask themselves- and before you may step in and say' well, you can always do those things on another job"- my answer to that is - yes, I can and sometimes do- but it shouldn't be necessary because it's miserable otherwise.

[Azurarok]

So, think about what you just said, and then think about how you would feel about doing anything when levelling or solo content as an AST. Would it sound like an improvement, or even more painful.

Because after having several (less than successful) reworks, this is one question that people often don't ask themselves- and before you may step in and say' well, you can always do those things on another job"- my answer to that is - yes, I can and sometimes do- but it shouldn't be necessary because it's miserable otherwise.

I mean that problem is because of the 2 minute meta and the no nerfs balancing. It's shifting more and more of AST's damage output to its buffs and away from their personal dps.

Also they had to add multipliers to it, BRD, and DNC for them to be able to clear Criterion dungeons, so if it really starts to become a problem that's an option, though a terrible bandaid fix imo.

[IDontPetLalas]

I mean that problem is because of the 2 minute meta and the no nerfs balancing. It's shifting more and more of AST's damage output to its buffs and away from their personal dps.

Also they had to add multipliers to it, BRD, and DNC for them to be able to clear Criterion dungeons, so if it really starts to become a problem that's an option, though a terrible bandaid fix imo.

I see your point now, and I would agree. Thanks.