Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Realfoxy]

Because (as I keep trying to tell you) filler is made more important in downtime specifically in PCT’s case because it has a tool that mitigates downtime because it moves a cost from uptime and stuffs it into downtime, that means when you move a motif into downtime you gain filler.

Alright, I see we're not getting anywhere. Let's use some real data then:

This is a top PCT log in FRU:


This is a top PCT log in M3S:


Take a look at these charts and take a look how much damage is coming from RGB filler vs motifs like hammer combo. Now, what do you think will happen if we nerf PCT filler and buff its motifs? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in FRU? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in a full uptime fight like M3S?

Stop thinking about "gaining filler". You're not gaining filler, you're losing less filler from downtime. Which is useful, yes, and it does mean that you do get more damage from filler casts than if motifs needed a target. But it doesn't matter because PCT's motif damage is SO HIGH anyway!

Ignore the effects of painting during downtime and just think about what PCT is actually doing during an ultimate fight. It's casting some filler, and it's casting some burst. It casts more filler in uptime, it casts less filler in ult.

You are severely overestimating how much a burst heavy CD gated job benefits from downtime because it’s exactly how NIN, MNK and DRG and while they perform slightly above average they are nothing like PCT. PCT gains from those GCD’s it gains from putting motifs in downtime

None of NIN, MNK, or DRG burst as hard as PCT does. Why do you think the DNCs in FRU are partnering PCT?

[Supersnow845]

Alright, I see we're not getting anywhere. Let's use some real data then:

This is a top PCT log in FRU:


This is a top PCT log in M3S:


Take a look at these charts and take a look how much damage is coming from RGB filler vs motifs like hammer combo. Now, what do you think will happen if we nerf PCT filler and buff its motifs? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in FRU? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in a full uptime fight like M3S?

Stop thinking about "gaining filler". You're not gaining filler, you're losing less filler from downtime. Which is useful, yes, and it does mean that you do get more damage from filler casts than if motifs needed a target. But it doesn't matter because PCT's motif damage is SO HIGH anyway!

Ignore the effects of painting during downtime and just think about what PCT is actually doing during an ultimate fight. It's casting some filler, and it's casting some burst. It casts more filler in uptime, it casts less filler in ult.




None of NIN, MNK, or DRG burst as hard as PCT does. Why do you think the DNCs in FRU are partnering PCT?

Again I don’t know how to tell you that casting more filler in uptime savage compared to downtime ultimate is literally a useless distinction in regards to the comparison of why buffing filler helps PCT in downtime

Because PCT gains filler relative to other classes because it offsets its burst into downtime. Read that again it gains filler RELATIVE to other classes, if you wanna consider that as “losing less to downtime” that’s fine but it’s still gaining relative to other classes

When you gain relative to another class Buffing what you gain makes it stronger

The logs posted are a useless point of comparison because the comparison of why PCT benefits from filler being buffed is not between FRU and M3 it’s between FRU and FRU with different PCT. Losing more filler in downtime is a meaningless statement when every class loses MORE in downtime

[Realfoxy]

Again I don’t know how to tell you that casting more filler in uptime savage compared to downtime ultimate is literally a useless distinction in regards to the comparison of why buffing filler helps PCT in downtime

Because PCT gains filler relative to other classes because it offsets its burst into downtime. Read that again it gains filler RELATIVE to other classes, if you wanna consider that as “losing less to downtime” that’s fine but it’s still gaining relative to other classes

When you gain relative to another class Buffing what you gain makes it stronger

The logs posted are a useless point of comparison because the comparison of why PCT benefits from filler being buffed is not between FRU and M3 it’s between FRU and FRU with different PCT. Losing more filler in downtime is a meaningless statement when every class loses MORE in downtime

If we're only concerned about PCT relative to other classes, then all we need to do is give PCT a flat -10% (or whatever number) to all of its damaging abilities. But as you've so clearly pointed out earlier in this thread, PCT is further ahead of other classes in fights like FRU with downtime, compared to fights like M3S (and other high uptime fights in Savage) where it still has a lead, but isn't as far ahead.

That's why I'm comparing FRU to M3S. Because we need to change PCT in such a way that makes it relatively worse in fights like FRU, compared to fights like M3S. Hence, shifting its potency from motifs to filler.

[Supersnow845]

If we're only concerned about PCT relative to other classes, then all we need to do is give PCT a flat -10% (or whatever number) to all of its damaging abilities. But as you've so clearly pointed out earlier in this thread, PCT is further ahead of other classes in fights like FRU with downtime, compared to fights like M3S (and other high uptime fights in Savage) where it still has a lead, but isn't as far ahead.

That's why I'm comparing FRU to M3S. Because we need to change PCT in such a way that makes it relatively worse in fights like FRU, compared to fights like M3S. Hence, shifting its potency from motifs to filler.

I thought that as well but there is actually a decently easy middle ground (I’m not asking you to go back and check my post history but you can see the progression of my arguments on this front as people have pointed out things)

The gap between where PCT is now (accounting for 7.1 being lower PCT numbers than where it actually is) and the lower bounds of the melees is about 8-10%. PCT is not so far ahead in ultimates that if you nerfed it by 8-10% it would be so egregiously ahead in ultimates that anyone would particularly mind

Basically putting it around the bottom of the melee (but still comfortably clear of the rezz casters) but still clear first in ultimate where it weaponises its motifs best

[HyperiusUltima]

Been Looking at ULT parties last few days, and all they want is locking in PCT. Just from seeing the data provided(and checking myself for recent clears of FRU plus day one) PCT is still destroying things where you can easily just double-up and not care in Savage.

Even others have been yelling at me to “just bring a PCT” or griefing other casters because “why are you playing SMN or RDM?”

People need to get it out of their f***ing heads that PCT is a end-all-be-all caster because of the fact that they have more damage than a Black Mage and nearly the same utilities as a SMN with a little extra.

Let people play their jobs they enjoy. I cannot stress this enough: If SE isn’t going to change this job, they could easily just delete all the other casters since they’re invalidated by the community as much as MCH is nearly with how polarizing it is(and MCH is pretty broken with some of its stuff being low pot for a selfish job).

[Kabooa]

I thought that as well but there is actually a decently easy middle ground (I’m not asking you to go back and check my post history but you can see the progression of my arguments on this front as people have pointed out things)

Based on the napkin math I was doing but scrapped the other post, the "middle ground" here would be:

Animals
1100 -> 900

Mog
1300 -> 900

Madeen
1400 -> 1000

Filler / Holy
+40

Palette Combo / Meteor
+60

Consuming Palette Gauge* reduces the cast/recast of the next Motif by 20%.

Using this to estimate the result in M3S and FRU (It was actually kind of funny as you could estimate about -600 potency per 2 minute window, or about half a Mog as a unit of measurement), the result overall was

"Full Uptime": 0 to -1.5% total DPS

"FRUptime" ~ 2.7-3.5% total damage based on the Picto. I chose several page 1 pictos in both (of the 7.05 patch for M3S) to napkin it out.

Full Uptime being neutralish was an assumption that all quick motifs were used to paint Animals.

The thing is the other napkin math was "Just remove the Starry Muse Party buff" and things mostly settle as well.

Picto remains the best burst for fights like Fru, but it doesn't dominate in Full Uptime.

So the above is one path, but this is also one (Exclusive, not both)

Starry Muse
Party buff -> 0%
Self Buff -> 10%

As an aside you could also further reduce burst by removing the self buff but increase the degree of haste Starry Muse grants, but I don't think that's necessary.

[Realfoxy]

Been Looking at ULT parties last few days, and all they want is locking in PCT. Just from seeing the data provided(and checking myself for recent clears of FRU plus day one) PCT is still destroying things where you can easily just double-up and not care in Savage.

Even others have been yelling at me to “just bring a PCT” or griefing other casters because “why are you playing SMN or RDM?”

People need to get it out of their f***ing heads that PCT is a end-all-be-all caster because of the fact that they have more damage than a Black Mage and nearly the same utilities as a SMN with a little extra.

Let people play their jobs they enjoy. I cannot stress this enough: If SE isn’t going to change this job, they could easily just delete all the other casters since they’re invalidated by the community as much as MCH is nearly with how polarizing it is(and MCH is pretty broken with some of its stuff being low pot for a selfish job).

"Ah, if jobs are imbalanced it's the community's fault"

Look, I think it's pretty stupid to lock out underperforming jobs from Savage given how lenient the DPS checks are this tier. But PCT is so busted that it singlehandedly trivialises pretty much any DPS check in FRU. It can hard carry people with weakness or damage down through P1. It makes the intermission DPS check a complete joke.

[HyperiusUltima]

"Ah, if jobs are imbalanced it's the community's fault"

But PCT is so busted that it singlehandedly trivialises pretty much any DPS check in FRU. It can hard carry people with weakness or damage down through P1. It makes the intermission DPS check a complete joke.

That's what happened to certain jobs in HW. In case people forgot, MNK was locked out because DRG was superior in almost every way just because of a piercing debuff. Right now, PCT is superior in every way for the caster slot that you can punt out a Ranged in Savage and not care. In Ultimate, you can't because of how the fight is designed in terms of damage if you're doing current.

SMN is already close to being locked out because of its damage, since PCT can do practically the same movement but better. RDM not as much since it still maintains its spot as the Prog Mage, but BLM is getting a kick for PCT since 1) It doesn't provide raid buffs, and 2) It's difficult to prog with due to no Raise, and also has a steep learning curve in knowing where to stand(and AM being a pain).

If you combine the amount of Logs that are available for BLM, RDM, and SMN together, you only get 153 at this current moment.

PCT has whopping 740 logs. Why? Because its job design is excellent for downtime fights. In general with how things look right now we should check in at 7.2 and determine what they plan to do from there, because if they don't nerf PCT, then we're going to probably see some lockouts going forward before things change.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Just nerf PCT tbh.

[Wayfinder3]

The real issue is that Pictomancer is the equivalent of letting the genie out of the bottle. It’s not really feasible to put the lid back on anymore because they introduced a true Hypercarry class into this game that is designed to maximize the buffs of the party member and is tuned to sacrifice uptime to make sure that gain is substantial.

In addition to this, the community now has to wrestle with the fact that now that Pic exists. Having 4 classes compete for what is traditionally 1 slot in a raid afforded to caster is simply not feasible. We already see in previous expansions that either 1 of the 3 options ranged and magical ranged had was either objectively bad (machinist) or pretty much the best option in every area except specifically progression (black mage) to have a 4th class means someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst. The arguments drafted up by the community to make Black mage better are insufficient. It’s lack of utility doesn’t mean it has to be better then pictomancer, after all most of the utility picto has is either A, just another way to do damage less directly, or B, conditional. The shield is really the only useful utility it has and heal on star prism might as well not be there due to how rigid the use of that skill actually is. It’s probably overheal more than anything else.

If we took away the heal and the shield, would people be satisfied? No, because those are arguments made in poor faith to necessitate a nerf, not becuase those skills themselves contribute to why black mage should be better. Nobody is crying that viper is so low in ultimate despite the fact it has basically no utility to offer anyone. Some people complain about smudge and want that nerfed. Okay, let’s nerf that. But pictomancer would still be better then black mage.

Most of the nerfs here are in service of justifying why black mage should be better, but what they actually do is just make picto much less fun for the people who don’t come to the forums. Remembers, we’re the vocal minority and the devs know this.

Imo, the solution to pictomancer is something that can’t be solved this expansion. FFXIV has to change as a game fundamentally or pretty much abandon any semblance of unique job diversity because Ninja had this exact same issue of being too useful in HWs and Stormblood due to its kit have a ton of fun interactions with the games mechanics, from setting up burst, to controlling aggro when that was a mechanic, to managing debuffs for slashing jobs in the game. All of those things have been stripped from ninja leading to the jobs to become static.
The community is essentially asking for pictomancer to end up in the same scenario.