Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Supersnow845]

Being good is one thing, being was too overpowered is another. The PCT has caused Savage tuning to be easier than they wanted due to they decided to buff every other job to to get get closer to PCT and they are still behind on damage.
PCT forced the change to Limit Break generation as to prevent groups from just bringing 2-4 PCTs.
Caused all other casters to be pretty worthless to bring to FRU
And will just likely break Chaotic 24 man by all group not caring about limit breaks or the 1 job each party bonus.

So yeah. Good you found a job you clicked with. But be honest, if it was just above RDM or higher on damage, would you still play PCT or would losing the OP state cause you to drop it?

I mean let’s ask the reverse question as well (because yes nerfing PCT wouldn’t cause me to change playing it) you’ve strongly indicated BLM’s position within the caster meta strongly influences your opinion of the game. Would you be fine if BLM was nerfed to RDM level or just above? If the answer to that is no then why is it a valid question to ask people who like PCT

This again returns to the point I’ve been trying to discuss for the last few pages, let’s take PCT is overpowered and needs a nerf as a given (ie that’s not a valid answer to this point), your solution to PCT’s balance is putting it below BLM. And further you state that since it has a buff it “should” be lower.

Is the fact that BLM needs to be first not a problem with BLM’s design that PCT has simply shown more clearly because since ShB they refuse to let the rezz casters do good damage. Let’s say we nerfed PCT for the rest of 7.0 then there was some balance anomalies in 8.0 that put PCT ahead again but not disgustingly just 1-2%; would that be acceptable balance or would “BLM doesn’t have utility so it has to do more damage” win out again.

Let’s go even simpler. PCT is too strong right now, however do you have a problem with it being “first” amongst all classes in FRU if it was above the other by like 1%? If no WHEN is any caster allowed to be better than BLM because BLM has no advantages when it’s not first

I want PCT to be nerfed so it’s not dominating everything, I also want PCT to be amongst the cycle of classes “allowed” to be top DPS depending on fight and patch to patch balancing. But when does BLM “allow” that so to speak

This is independent of PCT’s actual dominance right now which I don’t think I need to state again I support nerfing

[MrJPtheAssassin]

I would place PCT between RPR and RDM unless PCT drops its party buffs and just make those buffs personal. If PCT would be a pure selfish Job, being a easy job to play and not punishing rotations, it would be a bit below BLM still. A harder job to play perfectly should reward better damage as a trade-off imo

So I somewhat agree but do have some disagreements. One yes I do think PCT should be nerfed but not be in the middle of RDM and RPR. I think PCT should stay among the melees who have utility(RPR,NIN,MNK,& DRG). I think if it was in the middle or only slightly above RDM you see the opposite of what happening now where PCT would be locked out of PFs bc most parties will rather have a rez caster in the caster slot to help with recoverly and would most likely pick a 2nd melee or blm for the flex spot since they would do more dps. So that is why I think PCT should do melee levels of dps since will need to compete for that flex spot with the melees and BLM.

On the topic of how hard jobs are and how rewarding they are, I be honest no job in ff14 is "hard" Most jobs follow pretty static rotation and only really require muscle memory to play. Sure there are fights you have a slight change rotation but again all you have to do is head to balance, learn what that rotation is, and keep doing till you get that memory down. Not that hard honestly. I don't think BLM is any harder to do than PCT for example. Especially since they have given BLM so much movement over the past few expacs and less things to manage like the removal of random thunder procs. Even if we balance the job around how hard they are to play then VPR would need a nerf as well bc IMO it's way too easy to be a selfish job and do high dps. VPR literacy tells you what button to press and the removal of Noxious Gnash made it even easier bc it removed the only thing you needed to keep track of and maintain.

Overall yes PCT does need nerfs but it should stay close to RPR/MNK/NIN/DRG so it can compete for that flex spot in a party. Also when it comes to balance we shouldn't really demand how much dps a job does base on how hard it is since most jobs are boiled down to muscle memory(that of course is my option).

[Altera]

Because Picto has raid damage buffs, party shield and heal. That's why it should never outperforming higher personal damage than any selfish no buffer jobs. Remove PCT party buffs and then welcome to the selfish DPS role

[Wayfinder3]

I would have thought that you of all people ought to be able have some empathy on this point, because you yourself very recently gave up the healer role because of dissatisfaction around role balancing. You were lucky in that you found a job and role that still clicked with you. Not everyone is so fortunate. I don't understand your stance on this at all.

What you're describing is not a niche. It's complete dominance. You can still have your opportunities to shine without it. If jobs are well balanced, burst and continuous uptime jobs can both have their time in the spotlight. This isn't at all difficult to achieve. But everyone needs to be willing to share, and we need a job balance team that is willing and capable of facilitating it.

“Have some empathy”

Give it a rest drama Queen, Red mage has been my favorite class in the game since it came out and the job has always been used in exactly 1 scenario. Meanwhile, black mages weren’t caring about how bad rdm and SMN have been for ages now because blm doesn’t have a raise so they’re entitled to being better. Now the job has always been legitimate contender in pictomancer and we have people like you complaining about smudge, Tempura Grassa and Starry Muse like those skills justify pictomancer being perpetually weaker than black mages.

That’s ridiculous, get over yourself and accept that the entitlement black mages have towards needing to be the best purely cause hey have nothing else to offer was and always has been stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re worse than pictomancer in a fight it was designed to dominate in. The only justifiable reason pct at this current point needs a rebalance is because of how it breaks the ultimate encounter, but the fact that it’s better than black mage doesn’t matter. If black mages are getting locked out of parties. Just make a party and add a pictomancer slot and run 2 casters. The top clears in the world were largely double caster so what’s your excuse.

I’ve played caster since HW, I’ve seen SMN completely dominate both blm and rdm, I’ve seen blm dominate rdm and SMN, I’ve see mch dominate casters entirely. I’ve seen it all. What’s happening in fru literally doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This is like complaining about nerfing verraise becuase red mage is too good for prog and SMNs can’t raise as fast. Well DUH, becuase thags what it was intended to do. It was designed to be this dominant in FRU, this wasn’t a surprise that they didn’t forsee. They knew and accepted it anyway

[Wayfinder3]

Imo with PCT being this different to all other jobs, incl Viper which is the new job of DT, maybe PCT should be removed from the game and reintroduced in 8.0 when they do their so-called job reworks.

If PCT is allowed to run rampant for the entirety of Dawntrail, excluding jobs from content, I will not accept that and ready to cancel my subscription for the first time in almost 14 years now. I'm fine with other jobs doing a bit better than my own BLM, but PCT is just WAY too much. PCT is game breaking in current game and raid design. Or turn PCT into a Limited Job until 8.0.

Do you not see how crazy this sounds. PCT is so different from the other jobs and your solution is to remove it and stuff it later?

Guys this is a game first and foremost. Just play it, this is absolutely unhinged. Make your own PFs for fru or whatever content you do. But asking for something like this is completely ridiculous and a serious lack of self awareness. Also, you’re not fine with anyone doing more damage than blm because pictomancer is it’s direct competition that can justifiably keep up. If red mage and SMN were hitting higher than blm. You’d be complaining about them too.

Just say the quiet part out loud. “I want black mage to be the best cause it’s my favorite job to play” thats all anyone is going to see when you seriously suggest they remove a class from the game purely because it makes your favorite class worse.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

“Have some empathy”

Give it a rest drama Queen, Red mage has been my favorite class in the game since it came out and the job has always been used in exactly 1 scenario. Meanwhile, black mages weren’t caring about how bad rdm and SMN have been for ages now because blm doesn’t have a raise so they’re entitled to being better. Now the job has always been legitimate contender in pictomancer and we have people like you complaining about smudge, Tempura Grassa and Starry Muse like those skills justify pictomancer being perpetually weaker than black mages.

That’s ridiculous, get over yourself and accept that the entitlement black mages have towards needing to be the best purely cause hey have nothing else to offer was and always has been stupid. It doesn’t matter if you’re worse than pictomancer in a fight it was designed to dominate in. The only justifiable reason pct at this current point needs a rebalance is because of how it breaks the ultimate encounter, but the fact that it’s better than black mage doesn’t matter. If black mages are getting locked out of parties. Just make a party and add a pictomancer slot and run 2 casters. The top clears in the world were largely double caster so what’s your excuse.

I’ve played caster since HW, I’ve seen SMN completely dominate both blm and rdm, I’ve seen blm dominate rdm and SMN, I’ve see mch dominate casters entirely. I’ve seen it all. What’s happening in fru literally doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This is like complaining about nerfing verraise becuase red mage is too good for prog and SMNs can’t raise as fast. Well DUH, becuase thags what it was intended to do. It was designed to be this dominant in FRU, this wasn’t a surprise that they didn’t forsee. They knew and accepted it anyway

I kinda have to agree with Wayfiner here about how BLMs has never shown any empathy about rdm or smn last expac. I said it already in one of my posts on this thread but BLM mains have been one of the only groups I find annoying bc they tend to have this superiority complex and if they are not first they are last. It also furthers my belief that the caster role continues to be one of the WROST balance roles in ff14 to this day. I rarely see Sams have these type of discussions about other melees mainly bc the melees are fairly close together in strength and it doesn't really matter that Sam is a selfish dps. Meanwhile, casters always will have this huge gap in power among RDM/SMN and BLM/PCT bc two of these jobs has a rez while the other two don't. PCT has only made this even more clear since its the first caster that isn't a selfless dps or a rez mage.

[Altera]

Do you not see how crazy this sounds. PCT is so different from the other jobs and your solution is to remove it and stuff it later?

Guys this is a game first and foremost. Just play it, this is absolutely unhinged. Make your own PFs for fru or whatever content you do. But asking for something like this is completely ridiculous and a serious lack of self awareness. Also, you’re not fine with anyone doing more damage than blm because pictomancer is it’s direct competition that can justifiably keep up. If red mage and SMN were hitting higher than blm. You’d be complaining about them too.

Just say the quiet part out loud. “I want black mage to be the best cause it’s my favorite job to play” thats all anyone is going to see when you seriously suggest they remove a class from the game purely because it makes your favorite class worse.

PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

[Supersnow845]

PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

This is exactly the problem I’m discussing. Let’s ignore the fact that starry muse isn’t utility (it just makes others do damage) the idea that only the selfish jobs can be top DPS is simply a constrictive and bad philosophy because you are basically saying “PCT has a shield, BLM doesn’t so PCT ALWAYS has to be worse than BLM”. PCT can’t be a competitor to BLM if it’s never allowed to be better than it same as you currently have the problem that BLM isn’t a competitor to PCT because PCT is always better than BLM

And then you don’t even apply this to melee. The top 3 melee in savage for 7.05 are DRG (has a raid buff), NIN (has a raid buff), MNK (has a raid buff, heal and heal amp). What even counts as utility to make one not a selfish job these days. Does SAM’s monstrous tank level CD make it not selfish? Why are the melee allowed to bounce around like kids in a bouncing castle but BLM always has to be ahead because it doesn’t bring anything besides its damage

The fact that people cling to this balance philosophy is why BLM ends up being bad so often. Because according to said Philosophy it HAS to be the best or it’s the worst. The only reason BLM has been relatively stable for the last few patches is because after the 4.x into early 5.x patches with SMN the rezz casters haven’t been allowed to compete with BLM making BLM a functional pseudo melee. If PCT isn’t competing with BLM it’s competing with nobody for a spot that doesn’t exist. This doesn’t mean PCT should dominate like it does but it also has to be allowed to be better than BLM in some circumstances

[Wayfinder3]

PCT cannot be on direct competitive again BLM as Pictomancer is a hybrid. It doesn't have a raise like SMN/RDM, but it is not a selfish job like BLM. PCT has raid wide buffs, heal and shield. Remove all those buffs that boost the party and yeah it can compete with BLM, SAM, VPR. If you cannot understand that simple fact, you just want one Job to be vastly overpowered in all aspects, ease of play, buffs to party, and selfish damage that's beyond the pure selfish Jobs.

It’s like you’re ignoring everything we’re trying to tell you. The idea of selfish job IS the problem. You’ve isolated the idea that selfish DPS need to be catered to in viability because they hav nothing to offer but fail to recognize the obvious flaw in that game design decision. This idea that you need to be the best all the time or your worthless is horrendous class design and I have 100% definitive proof that it’s flawed.


Machinist

The worst of the pure DPS is constantly handled so badly because pure DPS compete with other pure DPS and nobody is going to take the weakest one when all of them in general have little to offer. This is why black mage is struggling so often. It’s not because the other classes are doing too much. It’s because it and all of the selfish DPS have absolutely nothing to offer. That’s the change you should want for black mage, meaningful and engaging utility to allow it to thrive independently of what the rest of its competitors. Until that happens, Pure DPS are doomed to fail because they can’t always be the best amongst their role and they can’t be best amongst their archetype.

You’re advocating for a flaw in class design and until you recognize it. Black mage is going to be considered trash time and time again any time SE decides to buff another class, to viability.

[Altera]

This is exactly the problem I’m discussing. Let’s ignore the fact that starry muse isn’t utility (it just makes others do damage) the idea that only the selfish jobs can be top DPS is simply a constrictive and bad philosophy because you are basically saying “PCT has a shield, BLM doesn’t so PCT ALWAYS has to be worse than BLM”. PCT can’t be a competitor to BLM if it’s never allowed to be better than it same as you currently have the problem that BLM isn’t a competitor to PCT because PCT is always better than BLM

And then you don’t even apply this to melee. The top 3 melee in savage for 7.05 are DRG (has a raid buff), NIN (has a raid buff), MNK (has a raid buff, heal and heal amp). What even counts as utility to make one not a selfish job these days. Does SAM’s monstrous tank level CD make it not selfish? Why are the melee allowed to bounce around like kids in a bouncing castle but BLM always has to be ahead because it doesn’t bring anything besides its damage

The fact that people cling to this balance philosophy is why BLM ends up being bad so often. Because according to said Philosophy it HAS to be the best or it’s the worst. The only reason BLM has been relatively stable for the last few patches is because after the 4.x into early 5.x patches with SMN the rezz casters haven’t been allowed to compete with BLM making BLM a functional pseudo melee. If PCT isn’t competing with BLM it’s competing with nobody for a spot that doesn’t exist. This doesn’t mean PCT should dominate like it does but it also has to be allowed to be better than BLM in some circumstances

You pick a job and accept the trade-off. Want max damage and nothing else, pick BLM SAM VPR, want should, dmg buffs to party, heals but lower self personal damage, choose Picto, want raise as well but at the cost of even a bit lower personal damage pick RDM/SMN.

At this point I just want them to all party wide buffs to BLM SAM VPR. BLM can get 1.0s ability BloodRite back that buffs the whole party by spilling it's blood on a ritual that enhances party speed and damage. Or make Blizzard 4/Freeze to cause Brittle status effect on enemies, causing the enemy to take extra damage for a time. If the whole buffing Vs selfish design is too hard to balance, give every single job a party wide buffs to damage, shield etc. BLM could get its old Stygian Spikes. Causing the enemy that strikes a player to take thunder damage pr hit it does.