Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]

I'm just gonna leave this with a "fair enough" - maybe my view on how jobs like downtime isn't quite in line with what other players perceive or what may be factual.

I just personally think something can/should be done with PCT directly rather than moving all other jobs around it - and I'd rather not make it change on a mechanical level, like requiring a target for Motif casts because that would just feel awful, just like Bard songs used to. The job doesn't need to be gutted and forced to swim along with RDM/SMN, but the job can also not just go unaffected; the power level it is at is quite real, regardless how we view job balance and what we think is the broken part here.

"Something" should happen.

[Supersnow845]

I'm just gonna leave this with a "fair enough" - maybe my view on how jobs like downtime isn't quite in line with what other players perceive or what may be factual.

I just personally think something can/should be done with PCT directly rather than moving all other jobs around it - and I'd rather not make it change on a mechanical level, like requiring a target for Motif casts because that would just feel awful, just like Bard songs used to. The job doesn't need to be gutted and forced to swim along with RDM/SMN, but the job can also not just go unaffected; the power level it is at is quite real, regardless how we view job balance and what we think is the broken part here.

"Something" should happen.

The other jobs shouldn’t be “balanced around PCT” they should be redesigned around PCT. Basically my general opinion of “if you have to nerf PCT do flat potency nerfs, don’t change its mechanical design” and “I don’t really care that PCT dominates in FRU because that’s where it’s designed to shine not because I main it in dungeons” is entirely borne from the fact that in my eyes PCT has ripped open the thin veneer of job design in this game and shown it to be a stale mess.

People shouldn’t look at PCT and go “it’s out of line nerf it”, they should look at PCT and go “why isn’t every job that well designed”. You don’t have to actually like PCT’s mechanical or visual design to realise that a freeform rotation that balances feeding buffs and doing higher personal damage that actually likes downtime and random cleave is far better designed than the rigid messes that make up the rest of the jobs that only barely function in the one scenario they are designed for (full uptime single target)

Like why do we continue to make ultimates when everyone but PCT hates downtime

PCT’s existence is good for showing off why the rest of job design is so bad. PCT is a crossroads in the game so to speak, we can either embrace PCT’s design and diversify the other jobs, or we can nerf PCT into the same stale mess as the other jobs and go back to complaining about homogenisation. That’s why I support flat potency nerfs that still leave PCT ahead in ultimates over any other fix on raw numbers if you take the stance of “okay it’s design is good and other jobs should follow but it doesn’t need to be top damage in every scenario” which is a fair point and why I’m not opposed to raw potency nerfs

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Those jobs don’t “like” downtime, they can just partially mitigate it by not having important CD’s gated by boss uptime. Downtime still leads to cursed optimisation on these jobs because at their core every job in this game is designed to function correctly only in full uptime single target. Like using the simplest example in SMN, spamming your primals then going into your demis faster isn’t really “liking” downtime, it’s doing weird optimisation around it. And even then it has limits because if you drift your Demi’s you drift your burst window. SMN actually does this in FRU and it’s cursed AF. Soulsow, meditate, chakra spam and lilys are really the only examples of downtime tools that are ambivalent to the position of the downtime relative to the rotation and meditate and soulsow are both on heavily gauge affected jobs anyway

PCT is the only job that actually likes downtime because it can convert downtime into uptime and it has the least rigid rotation of any job in the game so it also doesn’t care about any sort of optimisation around messy downtime windows. PCT can stop whenever it wants, can move muses around to take advantage of momentary cleave and since they never make the burst a downtime phase they can prep it whenever they want

The only other job I’d say that doesn’t mind downtime/actually benefits from it is WHM and WHM has basically exactly the same system as PCT it’s just not as potent

As someone who played smn some in EW, you are completely right. One primal exp I can think of was P2S. I HATED that fight as smn bc most ppl were holding their 2mins till after the forced downtime in Kampeos Harma I believe. The issue there was tho is there was just enough time to get a demi out so as smn it was better to use baha without your buff since spamming Ruin3 wasn't great and just accepting your burst window will be misline for the rest of the fight with everyone else's buffs after that. At least that's what I remember happening, and I hated it so much I switched to rdm for that fight. SMN really doesn't like downtime at all and as you say it leads to nightmare levels of optimisation.

[Wayfinder3]

With the exception of white mage, none of those jobs truly gain in the presence of downtime, they just lose much less than the gauge builders.

The fact is, having more jobs with unique mechanic that reward them in downtime scenarios while being inconsequential in full uptime scenarios is a net positive for class design and balance. It gives jobs different selling points and paths to their power.

The Olympic stretch is going for the gold. Nerfing picto becuase it dominates in one fight that majority of the player base will never is just the equivalent of giving everyone a participation award. That is to say, thanks for playing the same class as everyone else with a different skin. Black Mage and Picto are balanced in savage at the moment, the most popular raiding content in the game at this current moment. That is what is important. This whole thing just highlights how silly it was for SE to basically design none of the other jobs with a substantial gain from downtime. Even white mage could afford to gain more from it, however white mage is screwed by its proximity to astrologian, not becuase downtime like black mage is when compared to picto.

[Realfoxy]

With the exception of white mage, none of those jobs truly gain in the presence of downtime, they just lose much less than the gauge builders.

The fact is, having more jobs with unique mechanic that reward them in downtime scenarios while being inconsequential in full uptime scenarios is a net positive for class design and balance. It gives jobs different selling points and paths to their power.

The Olympic stretch is going for the gold. Nerfing picto becuase it dominates in one fight that majority of the player base will never is just the equivalent of giving everyone a participation award. That is to say, thanks for playing the same class as everyone else with a different skin. Black Mage and Picto are balanced in savage at the moment, the most popular raiding content in the game at this current moment. That is what is important. This whole thing just highlights how silly it was for SE to basically design none of the other jobs with a substantial gain from downtime. Even white mage could afford to gain more from it, however white mage is screwed by its proximity to astrologian, not becuase downtime like black mage is when compared to picto.

Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

[Valence]

Minor nitpick on BRD in downtime: no competent BRD was actually songless during downtime even before the song changes. I've personally never been, because if what was remaining on your song was too short for a downtime, then you'd cut it short and cast the next one to cover for that downtime. There hasn't been a single downtime bigger than 45s since Eden Prime. What being able to cast songs without targets in battle has brought is mostly usability and more flexibility without having to cut songs short or delay things as much, but in resources and gauge generation, this doesn't help the job more than what we had already. BRD has always been fine with downtime and decently flexible at that. Just not to PCT levels by far.

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

[Realfoxy]

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

That's why I like downtime skills like Meditate or motif painting, because there's some executional difficulty there in finding ways to paint / meditate during mechanics.

BLM is interesting with MP regen, because short downtimes where you can't get back all your MP cause your uptime rotation to become really interesting.

With regards to "everyone copies the Balance", I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. Technically you can copy whole rotations from people, but that doesn't mean that there's literally zero skill expression in playing each job. Adapting to weird killtimes and managing downtime is still skill testing to some extent. You're never going to get around the fact that it's just so much easier to get advice these days.

[Wayfinder3]

Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

[Realfoxy]

Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

"I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch"

Know this is a little topic I wouldn't be surprised a BLM did this bc from my own experience for the 4 expacs now Ihave seen a lot of BLM mains that can be very annoying and a little toxic. They are the only mains that I have found annoying bc they are usually very cocky and bull-headed about things. Always says things like "I should be the best job in the game bc Im Yoshi P fav and have no utility." Not saying you or all BLMs are like this but it does feel like there are quite few BLM who feel really entitled and think they should be the best dps all the time. Also realize there are probably PCT mains feeling this way as well and they wrong as well. This why person do believe the caster role as a whole needs a rework and BLM needs more of an identity of "I have to be the best unless Im useless"

Anyway just wanted to share my own exp with BLM mains in the game. I let the thread get back on topic now. I do hope we see something bc all the complaining about PCT is getting really tiring. Personiliy I just wish I could have my pre 6.0 smn back TwT That when I was truly happy with this game.