Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Wayfinder3]

Look I agree that caster raise has been a blight on caster balance, and I think that RDM's damage should be brought up. If it was up to me we'd delete caster raise, give SMN some actual complexity, and buff RDM+BLM+SMN to make them all competitive with melees, maybe with SMN slightly below depending on how easy they want to make the job.

However I also full recognise that the moment you delete Verraise you're going to have people banging on the doors of SE headquarters demanding it back.

But saying that "selfish jobs are fundamentally flawed" or whatever you're going on about is just being salty. Look, I want to run double caster comps. What I don't want is the current situation where the DPS composition has a slot locked to PCT.

Hell, you could even buff RDM to compete with BLM and I'll still play BLM for the love of the job. But this ridiculous saltiness about BLM just makes you look bad.

Nothing makes me look bad, I’m just tired of listening to you act like you aren’t here complaining that black mage isn’t the best option universally.

That’s what you want, stop hiding it behind the veil of wanting any sort of balance. If you genuinely think it make sense for a single job to be the best competitive option 100% of the time with no variance. Then I believe you’re the epitome of why game developers should NEVER listen to players. You’d have people quitting this game in numbers because of how stale it would be as the same 4 pure DPS continue to be the best options you could ever bring to an encounter with one of them being swapped out for red mage during prog. That’s lame, nobody wants that, shops should succeed and falter in different places or incentizes value and diversity

So for the last time, please just say exactly what you want.
“I want black mage to be the best”

Because that’s all you’re arguing for. You don’t care about actual balance

[Aco505]

Why?

Genuine question, why would that be as unfair as not being top DPS if you got no utility?

Damage buffs are not utility, they are a different way to deal damage. A NIN using Dokumori is simply creating damage by buffing everyone else but this damage is still there thanks to the NIN and the performance of all players involved in a fight. Utility is stuff like defensives or heals, either personal or group-wide.

For balance reasons, non-buffing jobs ("selfish") should not be the best at (r)DPS in organized and optimized environments. They are already very good or the best in essentially every other situation: in (Criterion) dungeons, in disorganized environments such as roulettes or in PF from Extreme to Ultimate, and so on. They don't depend on the party in any way whatsoever to produce damage and buffs only make them stronger. Someone dying doesn't affect their output unless it causes a wipe or messes up a mechanic. Their damage stays consistent and their only job is to make sure their biggest hits are in buffs.

For instance, despite the fact that it's in a weak state, MCH is pretty good in content such as Criterion or when progging a new Savage tier because others' deaths have no impact on the MCH's output, compared to DNC or BRD.

A "selfish" job dealing more rDPS than a buffing job would mean that they're dealing more damage in a target dummy than a NIN buffing 8 people in an optimized comp. This should never happen. We already saw this in ShB with SAM and in EW with BLM.

In theory, the "selfish" jobs' aDPS (which is the same as cDPS for them) would balance things out but in practice this won't be the case, particularly for BLM because while the job can save resources to deal a very good amount of potency in buffs, it cannot (and could not) do so all the time depending on the encounter. So BLM had to be buffed over and over to the point of becoming overpowered and additionally it is (or was) the only job that had to deal more rDPS than buffing jobs to compete damage-wise but this created the issue I explained above with my example of a NIN buffing a whole full party. It's more of a problem of battle content clashing with the way the job's damage profile works (before DT at least) and the devs applying band-aids to try and solve it.

TL;DR. "Selfish" jobs being high cDPS-wise is fine if they happen to be there, but never in rDPS (with the exception of BLM). Encounter type will also play a role (e. g. "selfish" jobs are almost always better in Criterion by default).

[Supersnow845]

Ironically BLM and PCT would work as “selfish vs buffer” a lot better if they had reversed damage profiles

PCT being a buffer but having a relatively flat profile would balance well with a heavy burster that’s selfish

SAM being a competitive as a selfish job is partially because it’s a burster (well much burstier than VPR)

[BabyYoda]

I remember people critic any change to jobs because: Hey if you add this it will break the balance.

Huh, PCT is balance after all

[Valence]

For instance, despite the fact that it's in a weak state, MCH is pretty good in content such as Criterion or when progging a new Savage tier because others' deaths have no impact on the MCH's output, compared to DNC or BRD.

Personally I don't really care if I lose raid buff party damage or not when progging a savage fight... The idea is just to learn and get through mechanics properly.
Unless you meant for first clears... then I guess? But then if you don't, next run will be cleaner and you'll get it anyway?

[Aco505]

Personally I don't really care if I lose raid buff party damage or not when progging a savage fight... The idea is just to learn and get through mechanics properly.
Unless you meant for first clears... then I guess? But then if you don't, next run will be cleaner and you'll get it anyway?

From another MCH main:

[...] seeing it locked out of PFs is really quite insane when MCH is actually better in Party Finder due to a higher disparity of player skill and gear making BRD/DNC less valuable [...]

[Tigore]

It kind of looks like we may be talking about slightly different metrics when discussing the selfish DPS. More than likely, nDPS was probably the metric intended for them to top. rDPS I can see needing to be more closer with classes relying on defensive utilities more heavily having a slightly lower value.

[Supersnow845]

It kind of looks like we may be talking about slightly different metrics when discussing the selfish DPS. More than likely, nDPS was probably the metric intended for them to top. rDPS I can see needing to be more closer with classes relying on defensive utilities more heavily having a slightly lower value.

Topping n/aDPS is a pointless mechanic because it doesn’t represent their actual contribution to the raid, which is why you use c/rDPS

A selfish DPS topping n/a but being noticeably behind in c/r is still by definition useless because they only bring damage but they aren’t contributing the most damage to the raid

A selfish/buffer split where the selfish tops r and the buffer tops c is meaningful however because it means the buffer is worth more in optimised comps but in general the selfish will win out in most other circumstances

[Tigore]

I wasn't meaning we should only look at nDPS and aDPS. More so to say that it is the metric usually talked about when some of us say they should top the damage.

Since they have no raid buffs, then their nDPS / aDPS better be high enough so their rDPS / cDPS is still close enough to everyone else. The presence of certain self or raid defensive cooldowns may also affect our decisions on how much cDPS needs to be taxed to make it fair too. Eg. Tengetsu, Mantra, Raise, Shield Samba, Curing Waltz, Troubadour, Nature's Minne, Tactician, Dismantle, etc.

[Supersnow845]

I wasn't meaning we should only look at nDPS and aDPS. More so to say that it is the metric usually talked about when some of us say they should top the damage.

Since they have no raid buffs, then their nDPS / aDPS better be high enough so their rDPS / cDPS is still close enough to everyone else. The presence of certain self or raid defensive cooldowns may also affect our decisions on how much cDPS needs to be taxed to make it fair too. Eg. Tengetsu, Mantra, Raise, Shield Samba, Curing Waltz, Troubadour, Nature's Minne, Tactician, Dismantle, etc.

I don’t think a single person has ever disputed the selfish DPS being top in n/a or that that balancing design simply makes sense

The problem arises that since n/a are technically not useful at determining party contribution that selfish jobs should also top r/c which brings up the “if I’m not first im last” mantra that BLM especially seems to point to

Its an interesting problem because since r/c are really the only ones that actually matter if selfish aren’t top of n/a AND r/c then they bring no advantages, but ensuring selfish jobs are always on top of r/c leads to whack balancing especially with BLM and PCT because PCT is basically designed to exploit c especially