Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

[MorticiaFhey]

And there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.

i agree with you. it's gotten substantially worse in the time that i've been playing, to the point where i've been kicked from dungeons for asking people to do the very bare minimum like using their aoe skills on multiple targets. just recently i had a 30 minute run of the 97 dungeon because neither of the dps used their aoe skills at any point.

the issue seems to be that there's a disparity in what people consider the 'bare minimum' in this game. to me, that's actively doing your best. you don't have to play like the top 5% or anything, but i mean like using aoes on multiple enemies, doing damage when there's no healing needed, using your mitigation, wall to wall, using your dots and buffs, etc. but to someone else, that sounds like i'm asking a lot, and maybe their only requirement is that you're pressing literally any button. and before anyone wants to cry elitism, this is not an elitism problem. there are plenty of casual players who do all the things i've listed. like it was mentioned above, it's a fundamental difference in the way people view other peoples' time. and unfortunately that's not really a problem ffxiv can fix.

[IDontPetLalas]

It's only "disingenuous" because you are a raging contrarian. The context of this discussion is the video linked in the OP, which lists behavior like cure1 fishing healers and dps not using aoes in dungeons. But you probably didn't even bother skimming the video, just coming in here to pick some fight however you can for the updoots or something. And yes, these behaviors are equivalent, because they are essentially dismissive of the other people's interest just to get personal rewards. It's like showing up to a double badminton match without a racket and with no intention to move. And while that is a perfectly legal way to play Badminton within the framework of the rules, the other 3 might not see this kind of behavior as conducive to their version of a "fun badminton experience".



If someone queues for a combat duty, the completion of the combat duty should be their interest in the first place. People who aren't interested in completing the combat duty should not be queuing for said combat duty in the first place. The fact that this kind of behavior is normalized pretty much ONLY within the video game context is completely asinine. It's video game addiction, nothing else. People need help and therapy to get their addiction under control, not being carried through content they don't want to engage with in the first place.





nd there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.



All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps. But hey, good for you to ignore all that and to stick it to those dang elitists! Gotta collect all them updoots or something.

A raging contrarian? Is that anything like the Raging Grannies? LMAO, and what in the world is an "updoot? I honestly don't know why you're obsessed with thinking that I want to fight, I don't care, I just want to follow a discussion, lol.
In addition, I never, inferred, nor encouraged that people should queue for a duty with the intention of not completing it, and I would question why you would even question why some people would want to assist others who are less skilled in an MMORPG? I didn't say that it was done with the intent not to help them improve- you somehow concluded that , it seems to further your own argument. Not to listen to anyone else. Note that I didn't refer to anyone as "elitist" , I haven't "stuck it' to anyone.

So, to conclude- any fighting rests in your own imagination, and as for your precious "updoots", here take them.

[VanillaWafer]

Note that I didn't refer to anyone as "elitist" , I haven't "stuck it' to anyone.

Please reread the post, that elitist comment was not directed at you.

[IDontPetLalas]

Please reread the post, that elitist comment was not directed at you.

I appreciate the suggestion, consider that I was being proactive, in any case once was enough, thank you.

[XtremePrime]

I have played through it out of curiousiy, but it is not mandatory to do it (should be mandatory before entering crystal tower or somewhere around that point)

It only teaches the most common mechanics which is fine, better than nothing i guess.

I would suggest they add some more stages of this for more advanced mechanics and markers, like Enumerals (1-8), also there should be a stage with a somewhat close dps or heal check, so you teach dps players that uptime is important and healers that spamming Cure 1 isnt enough. (i always see melee players running away from bosses when they get the smallest aoe marker on their head instead of staying close)

They tried to cover the most common mechanics you meet in a dungeon/raid and I think that's a good starting point for most newbies. We need to keep in mind the new tutorials unlock for lv.15 adventurers before they take on their first dungeon. Throwing too many complicated mechanics at them from the get go with no real instance hands on experience might scare/confuse them since it is a lot to take it for someone without experience.

The FFXIV community is understanding enough (from my experience) to explain mechanics on wipes and get together through a dungeon. A player telling you in a dungeon when and how to use Esuna is worth 100x more than the automated tutorial telling it to you without the context of the impending Doom insta-kill!

[Jaxtaro]

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

[AllenThyl]

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

[Besame]

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

I agree. My days doing dungeons for enjoyment are over. The last 5 yrs of gameplay here I only do them when forced in MSQ. I always did dungeons as a lowly bard and managed to receive almost 1100 coms along the way. gee, I guess I aoe'd hehe. I am one that enjoys actually talking a bit to teammates before a boss pull and thanking them after, seeing the sights in new places and never gets upset at a tank that doesn't pull 2+ aoe packs at a time. I am the "oddball" it seems, however, after almost 30 yrs of consistant MMO gaming I reserve that right :}.

[Jaxtaro]

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance, as you have a long way to go before your snide little attempted insults are even marginally up to par.

The base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me. For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

A far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

[AllenThyl]

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance

Yeah, probably is.

YThe base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me.

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. Because I did have to endure a lvl 60 dungeon once with a tank who didn't active their tank stance for the first 5 minutes, and only used single target attacks, so I couldn't use any of my skills, because that tank had trouble just keeping aggro from the healer who was only healing that tank. As well as healers who simply refused to heal. Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll? Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic in that regard. You enable the worst kind of leechers with that kind of thinking. The worst thing about this is, that you are so lacking in empathy, you don't even understand how this kind of "just carry me" attitude causes other people to be frustrated. People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps. As VanillaWaver said, the people who get grouped in duty finder are not friends. And it is incredibly disrespectful and rude to demand and expect strangers to show a level of patience and understanding for non-participation in a game that is usually only found between people with genuine history.

YA far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. When I do mentor roulette, I sometimes get to join a dungeon in the aftermath of such a group. With 12+ mins already elapsed, and with luck the 1st boss killed. Where everyone frustrated each other, because everyone was barely doing the minimum, often even less. The tank would not mitigate at all, but pull large. The healer was cure 1 fishing and not even using the proc when it happened. DPS didn't bother as well, so naturally every pull ended in disaster, since the mobs didn't die fast enough, thus overwhelming what little healing output the healer could be arsed to do.