Viper enjoyers we have to come together #FixVPR

[BoaBoaman]

These new "little tweaks" the dev team has done to viper this patch has not helped viper in the slightest. It had already struggled with burst but at least could go for picks or cut off escapes well. Now? I find it hard to take out an AST or a RDM its insanity for a melee class. I love the class they created here; it feels its aesthetic. It all feels right for me but I for the life of me cannot understand these changes or what process the dev team has done if any at all to make Viper like this. It is the damn poster child of the Expac I will expect a little love if they tell it is underperforming. So, I call on any of you that also like the job like me, I don't know if this will work as I have never done anything like this but the way viper is now just upsetting when looking at classes like RDM and AST. Let's make sure the Dev's see this and even voice your own concerns or ideas please. It is FFXIV first own job let's not have it be just a joke.

[ShinyChariot]

At least besides AST, everyone can suck together which is it's own state of being balanced :^).

[Ixon]

My current thoughts from approximately 300+ Viper-only ranked games this season:

Pros:
- I overall thought the changes coming into 7.1 were good. Taking the near-impossible-to-maintain-100%-uptime buffs to a flat damage increase was for the better. You now do full potency on your Uncoiled poke, and don't have to try and pre-buff before LBing for maximum value. The movement speed increase after Slither and especially after LB was definitely needed. Now you can stick to targets a bit easier and not be as rendered helpless by the Sprint button.
- Decently high sustainable damage. Uncoiled on a single target or in a group can really chunk. Slither with extra movement speed can really keep up the pressure. Plus, with all of Viper's oGCD's piercing Guard, it can easily finish off low HP shielded enemies.
- Really underrated survivability in my opinion. Can almost fully heal off proc'd Snake scales. Which by itself is quite lethal with a 16k hit in a 15y AoE when proc'd. Can also use the super tiny shield to live a SAM LB if full HP lol. Weaving two Snake Scales with Guard has a lot of stall potential. This on top of Slither that you can use to jump away to an ally to escape.

Cons:
- The biggest issue is animation delay. Ouroboros having the most egregious delay of 2.36sec from animation start to damage register. Which is more than enough time for someone to get out a potion or two. Second offender is Backlash. The number of times I have died in the second and a half delay between dropping the Snake Scales buff to execute Backlash for the full heal is far too many. Third offender is the LB itself. Even with the applied Heavy, if you hit an already moving target, by the time you can move you almost always have to Slither to re-catch up to them due to the animation lock of LB.
- AST being absolutely busted aside, Viper needs more overall damage. I know everyone asks for crowd control, but considering there is more crowd control than I think should be there, I'm fine not having it outside of LB. However, because it does lack the very lethal crowd control, it needs more damage to make up for it.
- LB needs a small buff, though not sure in what direction. 90sec LB, that you can chip down to under 60sec with full uptime of oGCD's that reduce it's cooldown, pales in comparison to let's say RPR LB. Which has a 60sec static cooldown, comes with interrupt-everything hysteria, can dish out just as much if not more single target damage, and ends in an execute (though notably harder to pull off than NIN LB). Not sure if they are trying to really emphasize its AoE potential, which is does great, but it kind of falls a little flat. Most people run away at the start, or put pressure on you causing you to end it early or run away/Guard. This removes the AoE niche, and the single target damage doesn't do enough to be lethal most of the time. Most can Guard, pot through it, sprint between floor heals, or if there are dedicated healers helping, they can stave off the damage by themselves. Don't get me wrong, the cleave is nice when it can be executed properly, especially with a PLD trying to cover a target, but its impact is not as great as other LB’s.
- Give the third Slither back. Especially since the devs though it would be funny to give more crowd control and more movement abilities than before, I would like it back please.

TL;DR: I'm not too dissatisfied where it's at, and I don't think it needs too much to be a decent pick once some other jobs get tuned down a bit, provided Viper gets a handful of small buffs.

[Bissonnettzi]

Their best move is the one that roots them in place lol, they definitely have to get rid of that damage delay and amp it up a notch. Their kit looks like its supposed to be focused purely on messing stuff up with huge damage but they're barely a threat. They're at their peak efficiency when doing two back to back furious backlash on people who doesn't pay attention or if the enemy team is all stacked up nicely and not paying attention to you when in awakened mode.

[Ixon]

Bumping. More damage, more lethal LB, faster animations. Please.

[ShinyChariot]

VPR is trash rn, does literally no damage and can't survive anything.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

The thing I really don't get is the seeming conflict of interest between its PVE and PVP incarnations. Most jobs retain their feeling (what little there is) going from PVE to PVP. They get what you'd expect from those jobs. But VPR...? A job with little to no defence and flashy zoomy moves that pack some punch in PVE... is suddenly this really rather sluggish thing with its need for "tactical" mid-battle breather breaks, that not to mention totally ruin momentum, upon entering PVP. It's semi-sporadic in application but yeah like, what?

These takes coming from a position of trying it in all modes since the patch, but the fat arse that plonks themselves down to take it, then clumsily tries to barrel roll their way out of the engagement... is a playstyle that's really emphasized in the mass PVP modes (FL and RW). It's a far cry from agile, what with the frightfully skittish reserve of frontline allies to rally around tending to pull away at the exact moment you need a bungee tether to snap back to.

Yes MNK has the same mobility style but... it also has a greater degree of control in its movement when it comes to defensive options. Is it effective? Kind of. Kind of only because.. .. .. ..something or rather tome grindset queuers not reading tooltips or understanding the basics (nor even wanting to in a fair number of cases) falling for it hook line and sinker.

In CC though... geez. Can it be played? Yes. But it takes work, plus there's one big biiiiig thing running against it, and it has been brought up here. You thinkin' you're safe to "tank" down to 20% or under, and expect to heal yourself up to something halfway healthy, especially with no threat of a NIN LB or Perfectio looming? Hahaaa!! Nope. The moment you Backlash it's goodbye -50% damage taken, hello respawn screen (probably) if the delay bogeymen get ya... on top of the animation lock gremlin.

So even the element that they're driving this job around doesn't work as intended (or... my best guess as to what they, the devs, think is intended anyway). It's an often underwhelming stage pot-tagging harrier-distractor now, and kind of the elitist jerk pick to flex one's knowledge of the mode and that's about it. /laugh Cuz there are jobs that perform that role better. Except it's not like my beloved pre-EW revamp RDM, because that actually worked the whole way through. A rare pick, but it just worked (naysayers be damned).

[ThreeBeastSmile]

[Tacking this part on since the forums are not generous enough with the character limit for mind vomit posts. Apologies.]

Ngl, the way Scales functions right now is closer to a parry counter, which is nice and theme form-fitting, because the ward is chewed through faster (at the same time rendering it prime SAM-bait, as it's pretty much BRD level defenceless where it was already rough to counter before with creative resets). You don't have to wait as long to proc the boosted hit, but... when there's that quirk in the mitigation bonus, and how you still have to wait too long to execute the Backlash it's... no, not really. Nice try though! It's at least better than before simply because no more spontaneous smol animal cosplay moments. Does it feel good to use? No. Still no imo. Do wish it had something more evasive in nature, but sceptical over whether that would work under the current response times.

Wonder if I'll be sipping snake oil by the time it's moulded into something more fulfilling... the same way I've been doing for PVE DRK all these years. Guess there's my actual main to fall back on, but eh, that's clunky as heck too now.

[Ixon]

Bumping; Buff overall damage slightly, buff LB in some way(50% lifesteal on attacks so you don't get automatically pressured out seems nice), slightly faster animations.

[ThreeBeastSmile]

Hello it's me again, getting entirely hung up on that old phenomenon of terminating LB early, and all for a slower than dripping molasses attack. Yes I know it can be "trick'd" into a delayed leech but gosh... throwing away a chunk of damage for something unreliable is not a great feeling.

Was poking around the JP forums and I saw what was an interesting proposal: that Ouro (iirc?) should reset Rattling Coil's cooldown. Personally I think that's a bit much on its own, but what if... it did a flat amount of cd cut, but depending on the amount of anguine tributes you have remaining at the time of execution, you got bonus time cut? Like idk 12 secs then 3 secs for every tribute remaining. That way you have an actual tactical pivot that you have to consider depending on the situation: faster LB or faster defensive and poke. I'm aware that'd result in a doozy of a tooltip that'd make Mesotes blush, but why not? Just want some skill expression back and genuine effectiveness.

And please, if no damage increases to warrant being so periodically vulnerable, then give more ward somewhere. It's tedious being unable to defend against SAMs now outside of simply not hitting them when you know Chiten is available. It's not a BRD. (No offense BRDs. /simper)

Then again I'm not entirely sure what posting here accomplishes when it doesn't seem to be read... oh well. Hope they'll see the JP post from which this moment of inspiration draws on though.