Raise and the balance issue

[Kes13a]

But even if a healer does make a bad choice: It's a good thing that he is able to, otherwise the game would play itself and how fun is that?

Dont worry, thats coming in 8.0.. "Please wait for it!"

[Nero-Voidstails]

I think the raise on DPS should have a bigger cooldown and be a ability instead but a cooldown of a minute

[Kohashi]

I think the raise on DPS should have a bigger cooldown and be a ability instead but a cooldown of a minute

it's completely negated by swiftcast which will most likely not change, ever, since it's the core of some of the caster's normal rotation.

And how would that even add anything to the game or be meaningful in any way? Unless 70% of your team is dead (including the healer/s), having a longer cooldown is pointless since there are only some instances where DPS is expected to Raise before the healers.

[Connor]

What is the community’s hyperfixation on putting a hefty cool-down on Raise? Like literally nobody ever just mentions the spell, it’s always ‘put a 2min cool-down on it!!!!’

Why are we advocating for changes that do literal nothing other than punish casuals and bad players by making them having to wait 2 minutes on the floor instead of 7 seconds. And if the healers both die? Gets its just a straight up wipe regardless of the competency of those who remain lol. ‘Sorry guys I had to wipe the raid because my raise was still 1.50M off cool-down but don’t worry that extra 100 dps I did will totally make all the difference’(I’m being facetious)

Is it seriously a case of ‘I shouldn’t have to dedicate 7 seconds of my time to helping others! Make it instant so it doesn’t infringe upon my DPS in any way!!!!!’ *proceeds to spam Afflatus for Misery outside of raid buff window’….and people still wonder why they don’t trust healers with even the tiniest spec of responsibility…and now we want one of the few days DPS can help healers to be so wholly neutered that it may as well not exist? What’s the point? So Summoners and Red Mages can copium the fuck out of their lack of Raise by thinking it’ll somehow make their dps super skyrocket to the top? (Tip: it will not)

Hell I’ll go one further: removing or severely neutering Raise is just further job homogenisation amongst dps . Why is it somehow a bad thing if there are dps with lower dps output that can support the party? Are we seriously going to start getting devs to make all 22 jobs pure selfish dps next? What about melee? Should we give them all full ranged combos with the same potency as melee?

[Nero-Voidstails]

it's completely negated by swiftcast which will most likely not change, ever, since it's the core of some of the caster's normal rotation.

And how would that even add anything to the game or be meaningful in any way? Unless 70% of your team is dead (including the healer/s), having a longer cooldown is pointless since there are only some instances where DPS is expected to Raise before the healers.

I mostly speak about over use other then that I don't have much of a problem with it not gonna lie like ya maybe red mage is overkill with dualcast and annoying sometime too but again I think raising isn't the main issues I have with today gameplay

[VeyaAkemi]

1 - Just make it so that the jobs that have a raise are not penalized DPS-wise.

Honestly this is the real answer, truth of the matter is, a good raid run will either feature 0 deaths or so few deaths, or so few deaths the Healers will be more than able to keep up with it, there IS a benefit to RDM rezzes in prog, but the other truth is that you don't have to use RDM to clear to benefit from it, play RDM to prog until you see Enrage, then switch to PCT and kill, that's what a lot of people are doing as is, the penalty only makes people who want to play RDM because they are attached to the job, its gameplay, and its aesthetics, suffer.

[Azurarok]

I have the impression things were kind of the other way when RDM was introduced. I assume it was the easiest caster to play at the time and through ShB, and thus had lower DPS, but had better support utility to compensate for it. It seemed like an oversight it was doing worse than SMN in EW, really.

Even without the supposed rez tax I still think it should be pretty far behind in dps to BLM.

[Kaurhz]

I think this is just too restrictive, and needlessly convoluted.

The most I think they should do is add a cooldown onto Raise, and Verraise, as opposed to removing it entirely.

Removing it entirely just creates a SPOF on the healers.

[BabyYoda]

What is the community’s hyperfixation on putting a hefty cool-down on Raise? Like literally nobody ever just mentions the spell, it’s always ‘put a 2min cool-down on it!!!!’

Why are we advocating for changes that do literal nothing other than punish casuals and bad players by making them having to wait 2 minutes on the floor instead of 7 seconds. And if the healers both die? Gets its just a straight up wipe regardless of the competency of those who remain lol. ‘Sorry guys I had to wipe the raid because my raise was still 1.50M off cool-down but don’t worry that extra 100 dps I did will totally make all the difference’(I’m being facetious)

Is it seriously a case of ‘I shouldn’t have to dedicate 7 seconds of my time to helping others! Make it instant so it doesn’t infringe upon my DPS in any way!!!!!’ *proceeds to spam Afflatus for Misery outside of raid buff window’….and people still wonder why they don’t trust healers with even the tiniest spec of responsibility…and now we want one of the few days DPS can help healers to be so wholly neutered that it may as well not exist? What’s the point? So Summoners and Red Mages can copium the fuck out of their lack of Raise by thinking it’ll somehow make their dps super skyrocket to the top? (Tip: it will not)

Hell I’ll go one further: removing or severely neutering Raise is just further job homogenisation amongst dps . Why is it somehow a bad thing if there are dps with lower dps output that can support the party? Are we seriously going to start getting devs to make all 22 jobs pure selfish dps next? What about melee? Should we give them all full ranged combos with the same potency as melee?

games mostly do not balance game by main classes (dps,tank,healer) but they balance them based on second factors like:
Slayers, Bruisers, Artillery
Marksmen, Supports, Mages
Guardians, Wardens

and the process of balancing jobs is like if X job 50% slayer and 50% mage then their functionality (kit) should be 50% of a slayer and 50% of mage and the job could have kit from both sub-classes.. this is a design philosophy that is running in the market currently in many games and it is working.

FFXIV choose to balance around the main classes which is DPS,TANK,HEALER and that's why we have homonogization, you can't mix between DPS/TANK and HEALER/TANK because it will 100% show a balance issue.

Smart games understands that, so they do not balance jobs based on main classes but sub-classes we call it balancing based on functionality of the job.

That's why RDM and SMN will always show a balance issue in the game they can't have Raise unless they do less damage, and having less damage = wipe.

they are better in cases and others bad, unless we have a system where we can have sub-class system we can't have this as a feature without its issues.

FFXIV is always trying to invent the wheel by doing extra work for a thing that is working and beloved by the market

[ForteNightshade]

What is the community’s hyperfixation on putting a hefty cool-down on Raise? Like literally nobody ever just mentions the spell, it’s always ‘put a 2min cool-down on it!!!!’

Because the dev team simply can't balancing around it, thus two jobs are forever stuck being miles behind their direct competition. It's not by a 100 DPS either. Pictro currently pulls over 2,000 cDPS above both Red Mage and Summoner. In this tier alone, Picto's representation in Savage completely cannibalized the entire role. The problem with this type of support is it's only valuable when needed and useless otherwise. Which makes the tax simply far too high. The only reason we haven't seen as much of a pushback prior was because Black Mage was relatively difficulty to play well. That isn't the case with Picto. It's not Summoner levels of simplistic by any means but it's pretty much in line with everything else.

Now why does all this matter? If you can skip mechanics or push through damage downs/deaths, you've eliminated a potential failure state. Case in point, Xeno's infamous babyrage video about Gunbreaker. Him swapping off the much weaker Warrior allowed his team to make more mistakes because the tremendous damage difference between both jobs gave them flexibility. Then you have to consider players who dislike their job functionally only being "good" when things go horribly wrong and disliked otherwise. A lot of Red Mages don't want to just be "the rez b" but that's essentially what the job is because it simply can't compete with Picto. The irony is way back in Shadowbringers, Red Mage wasn't that far behind Black Mage. So they can balance them but have intentionally chosen to make this gap so massive.

On the whole, a compromise would simply be leaving Raise alone in casual content and slapping a long CD for Savage/Ultimate.