Raise and the balance issue

[BabyYoda]

Raise skills causing balance issue for DPS and the damage is noticeable when certain DPS jobs are valid because of they have a "Raise",

here is my suggestion for this issue:

1- Remove Raise completely for DPS jobs.

2- when someone die add a timer respawn and it will increase based on how many time player died in encounter, starting from 60,90,120,240,can't be revived.

3- Healers have the ability to set respawn timer to 0 but this skill will have cooldown of 60s, 2 charges.

4- DPS jobs like SMN,RDM can't revive anymore but they can have less timer and DNC,BRD can have less timers.

5- when someone get revived they will not have debuff.

6- jobs like astrologian can have kit of true time mage.


why this solution is better that what we have now?

1- remove the toxicity around making some DPS jobs do less damage because they have raise.

2- give healers a choice to make game-changing decision.

3- remove the debuff of at least not in first 2 deaths will give players room to recover.


What do you think? do think current death + raise is balance as it is or there is other solutions in mind?

[NegativeS]

1- Remove Raise completely for DPS jobs.

no, thanks

2- when someone die add a timer respawn and it will increase based on how many time player died in encounter, starting from 60,90,120,240,can't be revived.

needless complexity, im sure savage teams will love keeping track of wildly different respawn timers

3- Healers have the ability to set respawn timer to 0 but this skill will have cooldown of 60s, 2 charges.

'rez once per minute' is a surefire way to make healer play rate drop to zero

5- when someone get revived they will not have debuff.

why

1- remove the toxicity around making some DPS jobs do less damage because they have raise.

wouldnt be a problem if se knew how to balance jobs, dps rez is part of their job identity and removing it just contributes to more job homogenization

2- give healers a choice to make game-changing decision.

they already do, see: they're healers

3- remove the debuff of at least not in first 2 deaths will give players room to recover.

ah, i see. maybe dont die in the first place

[CVXIV]

in a perfect world you wouldn't need to revive, and you would only need to heal the bare minimum
but in most scenarios, you will have people dying left and right
it's not a big deal for red mages and summoners to be able to revive
the skill is nice utility to have in the scenario of when you have either one or both healers constantly on the floor and you're able to assist in some way

I don't know how much more fun it would be to have players auto revive like we're playing crystalline conflict
there are also advantages to holding off on reviving right away, because you can revive right as the platform is about to be taken out right under you thus killing you again

[BabyYoda]

'rez once per minute' is a surefire way to make healer play rate drop to zero

Well, if healers is as important as "Phoenix Down" there is a gameplay issue do you think?

they already do, see: they're healers

I see so they can raise you but with the debuff, you can say that is a game changer but it is with debuff

wouldnt be a problem if se knew how to balance jobs, dps rez is part of their job identity and removing it just contributes to more job homogenization

it is part of identity that cause a problem in the balance issue, then you don't have to remove it but change it.

raise cause many problems to summoner and red mage they are effectvly second job citizen when it comes to DPS, lower level DPS because of 1 spell that it is their identity.

that's why I suggest that have spells that lower the timer by 25% for example.

needless complexity, im sure savage teams will love keeping track of wildly different respawn timers

in EW we balance the game around high end raiders, and then everyone blame SE in DT for that, why we repeat the mistake?

ah, i see. maybe dont die in the first place

exactly but there is a soft pillow between being bad and someone did a mistake that people can recover from.

[Aravell]

If raise is causing balance problems in the DPS role, then fix it within the DPS role, why change the entire raise system?

Limiting healer raise for no reason just further reduces their agency in the party and diminishes another avenue for a skilled healer to recover a failing party. This change won't allow a healer the opportunity to make a game-changing play, they can already do so, this change would just reduce their ability to pull a game-changing save.

[BabyYoda]

in a perfect world you wouldn't need to revive, and you would only need to heal the bare minimum
but in most scenarios, you will have people dying left and right
it's not a big deal for red mages and summoners to be able to revive
the skill is nice utility to have in the scenario of when you have either one or both healers constantly on the floor and you're able to assist in some way

I don't know how much more fun it would be to have players auto revive like we're playing crystalline conflict
there are also advantages to holding off on reviving right away, because you can revive right as the platform is about to be taken out right under you thus killing you again

well, I see your point but Yoshi P mentions that he did lower RDM and SMN damage because of raise.

he is using this as an excuse to nerf them.

Healers raise will function the same, having 2 charges each 60 s is reasonable, if 3 people died in 60s, the run is doomed anyways, they can't reach the damage check specially when it comes to high-end raiding.

yes in some scenario it will be bad specially if you revived in a place where floor drop

[NegativeS]

Well, if healers is as important as "Phoenix Down" there is a gameplay issue do you think?

its not that rez is their only purpose, its that the last thing they need right now is an artificial restriction preventing them from carrying out their role

I see so they can raise you but with the debuff, you can say that is a game changer but it is with debuff

the debuff is to disincentivize you from dying, lower dps/weaker tank is better than no dps/no tank

raise cause many problems to summoner and red mage they are effectvly second job citizen when it comes to DPS, lower level DPS because of 1 spell that it is their identity.

that's why I suggest that have spells that lower the timer by 25% for example.

so instead of letting them have a way to help the party, you give them something that becomes more and more useless the better they are at the game. something that SE will still give them nerfed damage for.

ok

in EW we balance the game around high end raiders, and then everyone blame SE in DT for that, why we repeat the mistake?

theres a difference between making changes that only benefit the 1% and harm everyone else, and making changes that harm the 1% and harm everyone else.

the status quo is perfectly fine outside of the damage balancing of the offending jobs. this complicated rez system is pointless, feels like a suggestion made by someone who has never played healer, RDM, or SMN

exactly but there is a soft pillow between being bad and someone did a mistake that people can recover from.

if rez sickness is the difference between your party succeeding and failing, then your party needs to vote disband and go practice on easier content

[Jeeqbit]

We used to only have one DPS that could resurrect and that was Summoner. At the time this was the case, Summoner was a lot harder to play (or at least, easier to mess up because some people barely did any damage on it) and was limited to 1 rez per minute. So, often your party would only have healers to rez, and if you wanted to survive, keeping the healers (or occasionally a SMN) alive was crucial - even at the cost of something like Clemency. I liked this because of the pressure being on the healers or on the party to help a healer survive.

Stormblood added red mages with a virtually unlimited rez, and in so doing changed the game. Being new, everyone played RDM. And to this day, if you want to carry a party, RDM is common choice to constantly rez them all. And with SMN being so easy to play now, that is a choice as well (if expecting to rez a bit less).

Should we go back? Honestly, no point. RDM has its place now. If you want to carry a party you go RDM. It's an option. You make this judgement based on your party and if you think that what you can bring to the party most is to "carry" them with rezzes because you can do the mechs. And it does work in many fights, especially extremes. And it works for the playerbase we have, let's be honest. Often you join a party and know they're all gonna wipe because they make comments like "I'm so bad at this fight". In a perfect world, maybe everyone would be amazing and not need this but that's not the sort of playerbase we have.

And the time you don't go RDM is if you don't need/want to. If you've got a great team that won't die or the fight is so easy they can't possibly wipe that much.

There is a benefit to doing a deathless run, which really, is everyone feeling good about their clear and not having contributed less damage. So it works out.

As for the damage being scaled on it due to it having raise, really that is just SE's damage balancing decisions and they could just change those, rather than adjusting rez. But it doesn't really matter as long as the difference isn't actually big enough that you prevent parties clearing due to your damage versus other jobs.

[BabyYoda]

--.

it is not big I agree if you just count how much X job do DPS but the thing is we can't really count how much X job do utility,

current RDM even if they lower their damage to MCH level it will still be viable not because of damage but because of utility not any utility but a raise that has 0 cooldown and insta cast after jolt.

SMN doesn't have swift cast but it has rezz which still a big part of why people play this job in the first place,

Rezz is the strongest spell in healers kit, giving that away to DPS will have some sequences and we see it now of how we balance DPS jobs around DPS when they have utility too that we don't balance it around it.

RDM and SMN could be in someplaces superior and could be inferior jobs based on situation, but I am sure they can't be balance with the current state with Rezz in their kit.

[Bellybell]

2- give healers a choice to make game-changing decision.

I'd only agrees to this one.

Other than that, just gitgud and don't die, no excuse