Can Devs reconsider body checks in large raids seriously?

[forksapien]

A big problem up to 7.3 is being too catered to hardcore players - a big part is due to body checks. Body check punishes EVERYONE for someone else's mistakes, it's good for ultimate and savage, but

Look at chaotic alliance - 1 or 2 fails will wipe 24 players. It makes people very toxic - most toxic I've seen in my 6 years of play

Look at forked tower, supposedly midcore - misplacement can wipe the entire 48 people - it's not fun

The opposite (good) examples are bozja castrum, dalriada, delubrum, BA (excluding ozma). You fail a mechanic, you can die yourself and learn from it. Team won't get punished. It's fun.

This is what a midcore/casual content should be like. Yes, people can get carried, but what's the problem with that.

I think SE might be putting hardcore devs to design casual content. It's resulting in the mess in recent contents.

Please remove/reduce body checks in future midcore/casual contents, especially large raids. This will bring some hope back.

[Mawlzy]

No. They can't. They are all out of ideas.

[Jeeqbit]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

They should try to find another way if they don't intend it to be hardcore content though. What worked in Heavensward was:

• Vuln stacks (whether just on you, or on the whole party)
• Bleeds (whether just on you, or the whole party)
• Placement objects. Weeping City is just a great example of this. You place webs, you place poison areas, tanks place adds, people place meteorites. Failing mechanics can result in things such as bleeds, or 50% of people wiping that didn't get onto a poorly-placed web.
• Orb collecting so they don't overwhelm.

These are examples of mechanics that all worked in Weeping City. It was a raid where people frequently wiped to bosses and abandoned, but it really wasn't that hard. I joined Ozma in progress a lot and cleared every time. But full-wiping a good 3 or so times through the run was fairly common, and that's the exact balance they should be aiming for in casual content. 3 wipes, which make you try harder and become better to overcome it.

If things like bleeds and vulns get ignored due to our excessive mit and healing tools, then the only thing I could suggest is adding a mechanic to disable or reduce the effectiveness of our excessive mit and heals similar to the rez restriction.

I should also say if they are looking for inspiration for casual raids that aren't a joke, but don't have body checks, they could draw inspiration from:

• Weeping City
• Castrum Lacus Litore
• Dalriada (the 8-player boss wasn't tough enough in my opinion, but most runs were close leaving bodies everywhere)
• Dun Scaith (it's not my highest ranked, but you get a lot of deaths to the first boss, and other bosses at least beat people up and make them have to try and hold it together)
• Orbonne pre-nerf was alright. Not my highest ranked since in Stormblood they started getting safer, but not as safe as what came later...

[Mawlzy]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

How do they keep fucking this up?

[Uzephi]

I
If things like bleeds and vulns get ignored due to our excessive mit and healing tools, then the only thing I could suggest is adding a mechanic to disable or reduce the effectiveness of our excessive mit and heals similar to the rez restriction.

They do have debuffs that reduce incoming heals; Disease. Wouldn't be too hard to remove the heavy effect and just keep the heal reduction. They have the toolkit, it's just barely used. Also one to increase damage taken that isn't vuln (so a separate debuff that might stack); Misery. Fun way to dispel it to boot.

[Supersnow845]

They do have debuffs that reduce incoming heals; Disease. Wouldn't be too hard to remove the heavy effect and just keep the heal reduction. They have the toolkit, it's just barely used. Also one to increase damage taken that isn't vuln (so a separate debuff that might stack); Misery. Fun way to dispel it to boot.

Misery would also be a fun way to take advantage of oracle’s AOE esuna since other than that its utility starts and ends at killing yourself with starfall

[Aco505]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

Which is a contradictory statement if we consider that after DRS was released, Yoshi-P expressed his intention to bring a similar large-scale raid in the future with mechanics that forced everyone or most of the raid to do it properly to succeed, since DRS was mostly designed around individual responsibility.

Body checks will always be a thing somewhere. The question is how annoying and late into the fight.

[Jeeqbit]

Which is a contradictory statement if we consider that after DRS was released, Yoshi-P expressed his intention to bring a similar large-scale raid in the future with mechanics that forced everyone or most of the raid to do it properly to succeed, since DRS was mostly designed around individual responsibility.

I don't remember that part but I know that he wanted to make more large-scale content in general at the time and then after how solo-oriented Endwalker was he wanted to get back to that. And I support lots of people being together because it makes it feel more like an MMORPG.

[Valence]

What worked in Heavensward was:

This is not to disagree with your bullet points, to the contrary, but what worked in HW was also that the battle system still had a semblance of meaning with resource scarcity, MP and resource management, and organic threats that weren't about binary DDR fail states but more about gradual threat increases (bosses buffing themselves progressively and/or debuffing the party, adds or mechanical systems gradually overwhelming the party through pressure, etc).

[Jeeqbit]

This is not to disagree with your bullet points, to the contrary, but what worked in HW was also that the battle system still had a semblance of meaning with resource scarcity, MP and resource management, and organic threats that weren't about binary DDR fail states but more about gradual threat increases (bosses buffing themselves progressively and/or debuffing the party, adds or mechanical systems gradually overwhelming the party through pressure, etc).

True, the almost complete removal of the holy trinity that made players actually rely on eachother and potentially fail a mechanic also just forces them to artificially create a snowball effect in the raid itself such as 99999999999 damage.