Job identity, simplification and balance in general

[HikariKurosawa]

Yoshi-P also said they were done with oversimplifying jobs, and yet here we are.
His words are absolutely worthless at this point. We'd all do well to fully prepare that the "new style of content" supposedly coming in 7.2 will just double down on everything we have come to loathe.

I think you should put less stock into statements taken out of context that are being twisted into a narrative by a third party news article. They haven't "oversimplified" any job recently. There is a big difference between the word "OVERsimplification" and the concept of streamlining. One by definition is taking things too far, one is just making things play smoother and better without being too far. Ability bloat piling up over several expansions has caused this game to feel like a mess to play, and we're at the point where streamlining the way jobs play has become necessary.

Yoshi-p knows how he wants his game to feel, and that's really all that matters. He has access to way more data than any subjective opinion posted on the internet, and a way more broad perspective over the subject than people who prefer it being so complicated that it is offputting for the average player. Let alone the below average player.

I also agree with Keichi in that every job in this game feels incredibly unique, and that's what matters. There is homogenization of utility(a good thing), and then homogenization of identity(a bad thing). We get a lot of homogenization of utility in this game, so every job is completely viable in every situation, but to imply that there is homogenization of identity is just laughable and disingenuous. It has never occurred, and likely will never occur. The jobs are too different for one, but the way they play and feel is all incredibly unique.

[ovIm]

I think you should put less stock into statements taken out of context that are being twisted into a narrative by a third party news article. They haven't "oversimplified" any job recently. There is a big difference between the word "OVERsimplification" and the concept of streamlining. One by definition is taking things too far, one is just making things play smoother and better without being too far. Ability bloat piling up over several expansions has caused this game to feel like a mess to play, and we're at the point where streamlining the way jobs play has become necessary.

Yoshi-p knows how he wants his game to feel, and that's really all that matters. He has access to way more data than any subjective opinion posted on the internet, and a way more broad perspective over the subject than people who prefer it being so complicated that it is offputting for the average player. Let alone the below average player.

I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

[HikariKurosawa]

I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

None of the jobs were made simpler in dawntrail though, they all got added complexity.

Why would I be huffing copium too, what a weird way of twisting my perspective lol. I love the direction they have been taking the game. I think they should streamline it even further, and they have with 7.1.

[jonimated]

None of the jobs were made simpler in dawntrail though, they all got added complexity.

Every single job was either made simpler in Dawntrail, or kept their status quo. Not a single job got any added complexity whatsoever. Some that weren't simplified in 7.0 were given the simplification pass in 7.05 or 7.1. There's also examples like Reaper which were actually just made more clunky by adding a new high potency GCD which doesn't generate gauge. I'm not even sure how that passed testing.

I don't know how you've somehow convinced yourself that removing mechanics and button presses = "streamlining". There are 14 DPS jobs in FFXIV, and all but 2 could be played, through an entire 10 minute fight, with a single button macro. The only reason they are not is because the game literally doesn't allow for actual cast sequence macros. This also applies to all the tanks as well. You really don't see that as an issue? Outside of movement the player isn't actually a required part of the gameplay equation. And even movement in 99% of fights is completely scripted.

If you give me your character's current GCD and pick literally any fight I could tell you to 100% accuracy which button you should be pressing at minute 4 second 23. That's atrocious design for a medium built on agency and interaction.

[HikariKurosawa]

That's atrocious design for a medium built on agency and interaction.

Uh?????? Interact with the boss fight primarily. I don't understand this agency and "interaction" argument. That's what you want, not the devs or most of the players. FFXIV has always been about scripted optimized rotations. Always. You want it to play like WoW, so go play WoW. This game is about adhering to a rotation that makes sense and flows naturally. Always has been.

"ACSHUALLY SANDPAPER STREAMLINES THINGS TOO" rofl.

[jonimated]

That's what you want, not the devs or most of the players.

I'm sure you have statistic to back up what you believe most players want?

Why are you acting like anyone who wants a little bit of complexity added back into job design immediately means they want it to be like WoW? There's a chasm of difference between what the community frequently touts as peak FFXIV job design era, and Wow during any era. And the fact that your go-to is WoW when people talk about complexity in FFXIV really says a lot about your knowledge of the game from past expansions and even now.

You're acting like player feedback has never changed anything before, and player backlash has never reverted changes before. Does it happen all the time? Certainly not, but it's non-zero. Scholar has Aetherflow because of player backlash at it's removal. Ninja has a single Raiju stack following Raiton because of player feedback at the beginning of Shadowbringers.

It's completely possible to love a thing, and also push for it to change/improve. The two aren't mutually exclusive and you really need to understand that. Your pretentious "love it or leave it" attitude does nothing, helps no one, and serves no purpose outside of your own inflated sense of misplaced self-righteousness. People wanting a thing to be better =/= disliking the thing.

[Mikey_R]

You're acting like player feedback has never changed anything before, and player backlash has never reverted changes before. Does it happen all the time? Certainly not, but it's non-zero. Scholar has Aetherflow because of player backlash at it's removal.

Scholar never lost Aetherflow, they did lose Energy Drain though, which was quickly given back.

[Schan]

I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

As much as I am unhappy with several job changes in DT, I think it's a bit unfair to jump the gun and start immediately accusing devs and suits of dishonesty. Yes, PR talk is mostly bull, however the devs are several patches ahead of us. These job changes have probably been decided a while ago. If YoshiP is truthful, and he only realised this recently, then we will have months until we see any noticeable change in job design. It's just easier to not have that hope / assume malice in the first place.

Regardless, even if the decisions have been made a while ago, they can still backtrack or address some things based on how much backlash they get. The more backlash, the more likely it'll be moved up in the priority list.

[ovIm]

As much as I am unhappy with several job changes in DT, I think it's a bit unfair to jump the gun and start immediately accusing devs and suits of dishonesty. Yes, PR talk is mostly bull, however the devs are several patches ahead of us. These job changes have probably been decided a while ago. If YoshiP is truthful, and he only realised this recently, then we will have months until we see any noticeable change in job design. It's just easier to not have that hope / assume malice in the first place.

Regardless, even if the decisions have been made a while ago, they can still backtrack or address some things based on how much backlash they get. The more backlash, the more likely it'll be moved up in the priority list.

Usually I would agree with you, but consider this - Yoshi-P is the producer of this game, the one that is supposed to have the vision and who controls what goes. If the interview I linked earlier was the information he himself has provided as of june of this year, then that means this should have been the intention for longer. And even if it was not, 5 months is a lot of time, more than enough to adjust potencies and buff stack amount. They were able to adjust things from Viper because of 3 weeks worth of feedback from the players. So clearly, they can be a bit quicker with adjustments for jobs.

I've given the devs the benefit of the doubt for years now, and after a while, my own well of goodwill has run dry, unfortunately.

[Mikey_R]

Usually I would agree with you, but consider this - Yoshi-P is the producer of this game, the one that is supposed to have the vision and who controls what goes. If the interview I linked earlier was the information he himself has provided as of june of this year, then that means this should have been the intention for longer. And even if it was not, 5 months is a lot of time, more than enough to adjust potencies and buff stack amount. They were able to adjust things from Viper because of 3 weeks worth of feedback from the players. So clearly, they can be a bit quicker with adjustments for jobs.

I've given the devs the benefit of the doubt for years now, and after a while, my own well of goodwill has run dry, unfortunately.

The interview specifically stated that the more major changes were coming in 7.2 and onwards. The changes to Viper and Monk (among other jobs) are just knee jerk reactions that shouldn't have happened, but they are also quick changes so it isn't fair to point at those and say, look, they didn't do what they claimed they would.

Changing jobs more drastically takes time, they have likely already started with the 7.2 changes, so, like it or not, you will have to wait.

You also have to remember they take feedback from many many places. What do the JP forums say? How about the other languages? Are there other sites that other languages use that are similar to Reddit? Youtube? How about feedback from the ingame systems? Just because the forums specifically do not like a certain change, doesn't change the fact they might have had a massive amount of feedback to the contrary.