Job identity, simplification and balance in general

[jusin19]

If I remember correctly, wasn't there an interview or post by YoshiP where he mentioned changing the original plan to give jobs their unique identity back—or at least starting that work in 7.1 and beyond? I just can’t seem to grasp their balancing philosophy.

First, we got a post about the balance of Pictomancer and how it's clearly outperforming jobs like Black Mage (which is in a really sad state right now). Then YoshiP again promised adjustments, saying that other jobs would be balanced around Pictomancer so they'd be on a similar power level. But then the 7.1 patch dropped with the most minimal changes ever. Don't get me wrong, the Dark Knight changes were nice and needed, but aside from that, it was just a few minor tweaks. And what was that Dragoon change? The Nastrond adjustment was something no one asked for. If anything, we've been asking to remove the second stack from Life Surge to make it easier on the hands. Also, why remove Nastrond stacks if we could just ignore Mirage Dive altogether? Since the expansion changes, it's just a weak oGCD that no one cares about.

I really hate the approach they've taken for the past two expansions, which just seems to oversimplify things. I understand that healers will be happy with the Esuna change, but healers who didn’t use it before the patch aren’t going to start using it now. The Ninja change to TCJ also removes the need for planning. I don’t know what’s going on with the balancing team, but it’s like they don’t know what they’re doing half the time.

Sorry if this reads like a total rant, but I’m just getting really frustrated with their approach, which seems to cater to “beginner/sprout” players and avoids nerfing anything so players won’t be disappointed. It doesn’t work. I know there are 21 jobs now, and maybe it’s starting to overwhelm them—or at least that’s how it seems to me. But we need more frequent balancing patches between big updates. It baffles me that they had four months for 7.1, only for the balance patch to be the most minimal ever.

Just my thoughts. I’m curious if anyone else feels the same way.

[Turtledeluxe]

You are just the latest person to realize that PR for this game is just a load of ****.

You can't seem to grasp their philosophy because they openly lie to you about what it is. Judge by actions, not words.

[Lyth]

The primary gameplay design philosophy is to avoid backlash, rather than being built on a specific design vision. That's why jobs like PCT stay in power for extended periods of time. The devs seem to think that if a job is highly represented as a function of being overpowered, then offending that segment of the playerbase by issuing balancing nerfs will cause them to lose players. What they don't realize is that for that job to retain that power, players who don't like that aesthetic will lose interest in that role and eventually the game itself, which is a bigger loss in the long term.

They try to mollify players on underpowered jobs using a system of supposed 'upward buffs', but we know that these are generally are insufficient and don't result in balance before the end of the expansion cycle, at which point everything is reset back.

There's also the issue that the job design team is small and the people involved haven't changed over the years. So there's a lot of static thinking around job design and I suspect very little oversight to ensure that balance issues are rectified. Like what do you do if the main tank designer prefers WAR and the main caster designer prefers PCT, all on a five person team? You either like the top job's aesthetic for that role or you quit. I'm getting the feeling that the inertia in this system will eventually drive players out of the game.

[Carighan]

Good luck with that.

I mean on paper it's easy to see, many MMORPGs go for moderate homogenization and unspecific fight design. FFXIV went the opposite way, high homogenization (this includes a loss/lack of identity and even a lack of personal expression) but in return highly specialized and specific raid fight design (the "ballet" we all know as the way FFXIV raids work compared to other MMOs).

The downside, this loss of job identity, is crippling though. It's expected, the fight designers need more and more space to use as the game ages, and as a result egg on job design more and more, which has to fit into a very specific and very narrow band of options that allow little enough differentiation, we can barely make the 5 roles feel different to each other. There's just no design space to meaningfully make jobs unique within their role. The most extreme outlies you'll see are things such as Dancer (the only job not based on "Static Rotation" as its core combat foundation) and Pictomancer. In theory also Viper but the job in itself is too broken and underdeveloped to showcase its newness in a positive way.

It depends on what you want, though. I mean it's a tradeoff, in return for loss of job identity we get this fight design, and even if the devs would be willing to inverse that decision, there's no telling whether we wouldn't end up in a situation where FFXIV is like other MMOs, and hence why not just play those. A minor upside of this is how easy it is to play job Y instead of job X, since they're all largely identical within a role and can largely use the same hotbar setup, casters excepted of course (the only role that shows strong intra-role differentiation, though sadly only in ability design not combat flow, it's still all static rotation, yes even Red Mage).

[CidHeiral]

I've always given them the benefit of the doubt with what they say but at this point I have zero faith in this supposed complexity overhaul in 8.0. They've done nothing but double down on making every job as mindless as possible every chance they get. They'll probably prune the jobs even more but add something really inane like talent trees to give the illusion of depth. 5% more damage on my one attack button, oh boy.

[Sylvain]

Was the Nastrond change requested on the japanese side? Because I can't ever recall anyone complaining about nastrond ever.

The Ten Chi Jin also makes little sens. Not moving for 3s every 2min wasn't such a big deal. If the issue was "unfortunate movement input throwing off the burst", well a compromise could have been done like making Ten Chi Jin a very tiny leyline. This way it would retain its identity while adressing minor issue. I've heard people talk about drifting controller making them unable to play the job. That's to me a very poor reason because this would imply all caster should stop being caster since you can't play them on a drifting controller.

The BLM change makes sens with the addition of Flare Star. You can be for or against but it clearly attempts to fix a problem about the new BLM rotation which is extensively complained about. But Ten Chi Jin and more especially, Nastrond? Can't ever recall a single forum post about those. (especially Nastrond)

[ahegao_daddy69]

It took me a day of playing dragoon to realize something was off, and when I noticed it, it really broke me.
More than any other job, dragoon has been like, *the adhd job*, and it's genuinely some of the most fun I've had mastering any class in a video game. Taking away shatterspine dive was okay, because we got two weaves to make up for it, and we got to keep our gap closer. Losing dragon sight was alright... I guess... even if it was cool getting both eyes, and felt good handing out a 5% buff, it was definitely inconvenient.
But losing two weaves for more damage potency? I feel stronger, sure... but I'm having less fun...
This isn't the kind of thing I'd like to shrug off and get used to. I understand that they want the difficulty to come from the fights, but as someone who's already mastered dragoon movement, weaves and rotations over the past few years, this just comes off as a slap to the face, as if they don't trust us to know how to play our favorite jobs.
I can only PRAY that enough people talk about this to get them to do a full revert, damage potency and all, because frankly, I don't care if I'm doing less damage than a bard weaving peloton, dragoon is fun, and this game needs more of that, not less.

[Valence]

Good luck with that.

I mean on paper it's easy to see, many MMORPGs go for moderate homogenization and unspecific fight design. FFXIV went the opposite way, high homogenization (this includes a loss/lack of identity and even a lack of personal expression) but in return highly specialized and specific raid fight design (the "ballet" we all know as the way FFXIV raids work compared to other MMOs).

The downside, this loss of job identity, is crippling though. It's expected, the fight designers need more and more space to use as the game ages, and as a result egg on job design more and more, which has to fit into a very specific and very narrow band of options that allow little enough differentiation, we can barely make the 5 roles feel different to each other. There's just no design space to meaningfully make jobs unique within their role. The most extreme outlies you'll see are things such as Dancer (the only job not based on "Static Rotation" as its core combat foundation) and Pictomancer. In theory also Viper but the job in itself is too broken and underdeveloped to showcase its newness in a positive way.

It depends on what you want, though. I mean it's a tradeoff, in return for loss of job identity we get this fight design, and even if the devs would be willing to inverse that decision, there's no telling whether we wouldn't end up in a situation where FFXIV is like other MMOs, and hence why not just play those. A minor upside of this is how easy it is to play job Y instead of job X, since they're all largely identical within a role and can largely use the same hotbar setup, casters excepted of course (the only role that shows strong intra-role differentiation, though sadly only in ability design not combat flow, it's still all static rotation, yes even Red Mage).

I completely agree but as a small note DNC does have a static rotation, goes through the same 1min and 2min bursts than other jobs do. It's a bard without the song layer to add variety.

I don't beleive they'll change fight design. This would invalidate all the fights that have come before. They're stuck in a corner and it's a stinky one.

[Carighan]

\Not moving for 3s every 2min wasn't such a big deal.

I think this might have just been pre-emptive stuff. The fight designers asking for such instances to be removed from melee DPS. Next up with be Oblatio.

[Aco505]

Was the Nastrond change requested on the japanese side?

Yes, it's common for the JP player base to complain about the amount of weaves. I've seen suggestions of making Nastrond have 1 charge, removing Life Surge or Mirage Dive, further reducing the animation lock of jumps or even making them not move you anymore... it's not the majority but it happens often alongside other asks such as having a 1000 potency action or the job becoming selfish.

In fact, several posts over there are already praising some of the changes but others are concerned.