MNK changes don't feel good to play

[PC-Doodle]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to leave feedback on the changes or not, so please bear with me if this is in the wrong category:

As we all know, the new changes for every class has gone live in PVP. Everyone has both good and bad opinions about it. Hit latency seems to have slowed down the game and feels unresponsive and could affect what's happening, please keep this in mind.

My main class, Monk, has lost both its stun and kick ability that used to be crucial to its close-up playstyle. It was snappy, reactive and fun. It made it unique as a brawler/assassin and coordinator in team attacks where you could isolate a specific target and remove it from its group (example, picking out a WHM from a crowd, jumping in, stunning and kicking it back out to your team, jump back out to it and continue fight).
Our stun and kick has instead been replaced with a long-range spammable fire blast and a slower, glitchier wind kick that doesn't seem to work most of the time from my play-tests. This doesn't feel natural or correct for a MNK and feels like now we're supposed to be some sort of diet NIN where we constantly hover away from fights and just throw blasts out. Getting in close feels a bit bad when we only have punches and no reliable kick to create distance or stun to engage/disengage.

I played Monk for years because it was a true melee class that felt snappy and nice to play. It was reactive and it felt like I needed skill to perform fight tactics that were beneficial to my team. Now it feels like I'm supposed to stay out of fights otherwise I have no means of truly brawling 1v1 in a satisfying way.

I understand that my opinion and experiences are my own, but it feels awful to log in one day and see the thing that I enjoyed playing the most in tense fights reduced to a long-ranged gimmick. There are plenty of caster classes for that.
I acknowledge that the thought must have been something along the lines of "Monk can now chase people down easier with this fireball attack barrage" but chasing an enemy has never been an issue with how fast we get our jumps back. When Monk players asked for a long-range option, we generally meant in PvE when a boss is filing its taxes for 5 years out of reach, not PvP where everything is nice and close and punchable (or used to be).

I'm sure there are Monks out there overjoyed with being Goku in Frontlines now, but I personally feel like the thing that I enjoyed the most was stripped away from me without a choice. I'm sure the fireball attack could have simply been an evolving skill of our fire for something else, but the removal of our small stun and instant kick is what really saddened me.

[Volfe]

Same here. I wanna throw hands, not be a discount BLM.

[Elissar]

damnn looks like so many decisions was made by gemini AI

[Reese_Clairdale]

This is more or less my initial reaction to the 7.1 changes after a couple matches as well. I quickly gravitated towards Monk as my primary PvP DPS job after Crystal Conflict was implemented and your description of it is apt. It felt like a job that traded some AoE and Ranged damage options for extra speed, survivability, and crowd control. Right now though it just feels like a nondescript blob of generic damage skills but you can remove one person's Guard sometimes.

The thing that shocked me the most in this update is that they intentionally added a massive delay on Phantom Rush actually dealing its damage so that it lines up with the end of the animation. This is really unacceptable, it's already enough work building up 6 GCDs towards accessing Phantom Rush. Being able to capitalize on that burst already required planning, now it's more awkward in addition to not having Six Side Star to temporarily stop people's self healing. Furthermore, shifting the position of Demolish so that it's in the middle of the combo now is going to throw off the muscle memory of long time Monk mains for a while as well since this was essentially the cue that Phantom Rush is next. I get that they wanted to make the shiny Dawntrail animations have the more impactful potency numbers but it's still an annoyance.

The only change I was hoping for in 7.1 was fixing the issue where Earth's Reply's healing and damage takes about 5 minutes to actually resolve, especially since they specifically mentioned addressing skill responsiveness, but no. Instead they reduce the amount of tactical options Monk has, while making new and existing skills more cumbersome.

Edit for additional thoughts:

Finally got to sit down and do some extra PvP on Monk and look at the skill changes closer -

- Phantom Rush damage is so ridiculously delayed that it might even be worse than Earth's Reply at the moment.

- The loss of a Thunderclap stack is keenly felt, but at the same time I was surviving more situations than I probably should have due to boosted HP and since other jobs also lost some stun options.

- The fireball spam is actually far worse than I initially realized. I thought it was only Fire's Reply that was a ranged attack, but somehow missed that Flint's Reply is also ranged, just single target. Others have said this makes Monk feel more akin to Black Mage or a DBZ character, but from a pure gameplay perspective, this makes Monk feel closer to how they implemented Viper in PvP IMO: Sniping people from ranged until you get an opportunity to chase down people when the tide of battle is in your favor. There are probably other comparisons as well, but overall it's just more dilution of job identity.

- The loss of Six-sided Star reduces the amount of mind games that Monk can employ. Enemies that get close had to be aware that you could stun at any time. Using Thunderclap had some jump scare factor as you could sometimes preemptively force a Guard, Purify, or other anti-stun effects out of someone even if you didn't intend to stun. Now they barely have to consider your presence unless you're in Crystal Conflict where everybody can view your Limit Break gauge, in which case they will be aware when your powerful stun is ready regardless.

- Wind's Reply vs Enlightenment... I preferred Enlightenment, no contest. It felt like a Hadouken / Kamehameha hybrid and was more thematically consistent with the rest of Monk IMO. Shooting a puff of wind with hardly any sound is so unsatisfying. The delayed knockback also makes it even harder to aim than it would be by simply losing Six-sided Star. Enlightenment was an extremely potent tool for exploiting arena specific mechanics in Crystal Conflict, the landscape itself in Frontlines, or simply turning an enemy's dive into an overextension.

- Meteodrive lost 5y of range as well, most likely due to the new ranged damage options. This skill has definitely lost a lot of team defense capability in Frontlines as a result. It was fun to thwart Dark Knights or other players before they got to dive into your group from an extreme range, but from what I've seen so far, those group AoE tactics have lost some effectiveness due to the weird delays or reduced radius added to everything anyways.

- I had an opportunity to try the Wind's Reply -> Meteodrive -> Fire's Reply tech on an already Guarded player that was mentioned on Page 3, and it does indeed work. It's also not as visually disjointed as I was anticipating. A new trick is good since Monk lost so many, but I won't be too shocked if SE puts an end to it since it is counterintuitive, yet at the same time I won't be surprised if they double down on these weird delayed skill interactions in the next patches since they went out of their way to implement so many with 7.1

In summary, I would very much like Monk to return to the feeling of being the scrappy brawler with a lot of tricks, but has to work for its explosive AoE burst options. For now I just anticipate Monk being Fire Mario instead for the next 2 years.

[PC-Doodle]

This is more or less my initial reaction to the 7.1 changes after a couple matches as well. I quickly gravitated towards Monk as my primary PvP DPS job after Crystal Conflict was implemented and your description of it is apt. It felt like a job that traded some AoE and Ranged damage options for extra speed, survivability, and crowd control. Right now though it just feels like nondescript blob of generic damage skills but you can remove one person's Guard sometimes.

The thing that shocked me the most in this update is that they intentionally added a massive delay on Phantom Rush actually dealing its damage so that it lines up with the end of the animation. This is really unacceptable, it's already enough work building up 6 GCDs towards accessing Phantom Rush. Being able to capitalize on that burst already required planning, now it's more awkward in addition to not having Six Side Star to temporarily stop people's self healing. Furthermore, shifting the position of Demolish so that it's in the middle of the combo now is going to throw off the muscle memory of long time Monk mains for a while as well since this was essentially the cue that Phantom Rush is next. I get that they wanted to make the shiny Dawntrail animations have the more impactful potency numbers but it's still an annoyance.

The only change I was hoping for in 7.1 was fixing the issue where Earth's Reply's healing and damage takes about 5 minutes to actually resolve, especially since they specifically mentioned addressing skill responsiveness, but no. Instead they reduce the amount of tactical options Monk has, while making new and existing skills more cumbersome.

You definitely put it much better than I did! I was mostly typing off of the massive shift in vibe I felt without putting in the actual technical issues it introduced as well. Thank you for saying it--you really nailed down that aspect that I failed to put into words!

The muscle memory of Demolish definitely threw me off my first few games. I went from "Elbow Punch is right before big burst" to "I guess... weird dragon fire blast is before it?". And the delay in waiting for the animation was definitely throwing me off as well but I wasn't sure if it was intentional or the server tick issues that seem to be present. Combat has felt muddy and slow despite all the flashing lights so I couldn't pinpoint if it was the class skill or the update in general causing a wonkiness.

I really hope that there's someone out there that'll hear us about it--it's such a simple little fix to make it better, but I'm not sure I have much faith after all the years Astro has been tossed about. I just know in my heart that this isn't Monk's best self and I just want it to be fun again in the way it was supposed to be.

[SomeGuy22]

The thing that shocked me the most in this update is that they intentionally added a massive delay on Phantom Rush actually dealing its damage so that it lines up with the end of the animation

It boggles the mind how using Phantom Rush gives your opponent more time to react than a fucking MCH LB. All that buildup and now they can guard it on reaction. Great. Should've hanged back and thrown more balls I guess

[Esmoire]

I'm conflicted in some areas.

I don't necessarily like how much MNK felt like everything was always a knife fight. Burst sequences was like... no matter what, one of us is going to die fast. But like, I really miss the abduction plays. Even if we just had a root or movement speed bonus somewhere else somewhere it would help with letting us punt people into advantageous positions... Just anything. Wind's Reply is such a nothing sandwich right now. I'd also like to echo disappointment with Phantom Rush's damage snapshot. If it's an attack like this where it strikes the enemy multiple times, just give us the damage immediately.

[Esmoire]

Caught up on the posts, and I agree with the consensus that monk feels a lot less monk-like? This new patch of PvP kits feels like they mixed up unique tools from unique direction. It's kind of like what they keep doing with PvE. I see changes to MNK, GNB, AST, RDM, etc. where they got rid of a lot of what made them unique to round them out better. They have something cool and desirable that they bring to the table, but overall there is a lot less you can say about the overall direction of the job that's distinct. MNK's gameplay just doesn't scream "rushdown martial artist" anymore. What I'm doing is so much more generic, and even if you achieve balance, it makes for a less interesting product.

[Mawlzy]

I can see how MNK players have been some of the worst impacted both by kit changes and the new hit detection protocol. You have my sympathies.

I doubt it makes you feel any better, but there's no "rush" anything anymore. Rush has become mush. Press buttons and hope as the attack resolves that something positive happens.

Absolutely incomprehensible.

[Phylecia]

I mean that as literal as it can be taken, like I say broken not in the slang sense of, it's a beast in gameplay sense, like I mean broken like the rear axel of the car is snapped off and you ass is dragging if you try driving it.

It’s obvious that they ‘wanted’ to make Monk viable for Frontline and I wish I could like that mode, but at the end of the day 24x3 pile up is just a CC and AoE spam and personal play skill is lost in the cartoon punch cloud (my personal opinion)

Old Monk, unless chasing down a player and ignore group objective, rarely would ever see Phantom Rush. Because you hit run, hit run, you never actually fight long enough or live long enough to build it up in Frontline.

So I see very clearly they just made Monk a watered down Summoner / Black Mage (Ranged) so hey, you too can now just pee in the circles the Dark Knights make like everyone else and you too, can do a ’good job’

Problem with that…

There’s this other mode called Crystal Conflict where you push a crystal… and omg I so don’t want to make a wall of text and I’ll do my best to break this up, but omg this new monk, created for frontline play, is HORRIBLE for Crystal Conflict. Like I know saying ‘I hate it’ or ‘it’s horrible’ are strong statements, but I honestly feel I’m saying it like it is, right down to it. I made an evening of playing it, and by the end of the night I felt hate and annoyance with playing it at the end of the night lol

Where to be begin...

First of all, every post above this post is 100% right on the money with what has been pointed out so far--I couldn't agree with everyone more.

I’ll try to focus past what’s been said already, other than repeating that Phantom Rush has pretty much become unusable—huge effort to build up, very high risk to land, and pretty low reward, in fact the AoE (tiny as it is) got nerfed too, cause why not… Like it got sooo bad, it almost felt deliberate, like, WE DO NOT WANT YOU USING THIS ABILITY, type bad.

So here’s my personal checklist of what got broken:
- All classes get an HP Boost, Monk which had the highest HP outside of tanks now has other jobs with equal/closer health, SAM for example. (Health wise, we got weaker)

- We have 2 gap closers instead of 3 (We got less mobile)

- THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM we lost Stun completely. In a 1v1 a Stun doesn’t just keep them on that bomb path or that pop-up floor, it also lets you play footsies and get a good angle to shove for tactical position, like into your teammates. IN ADDITION, if you are dueling in a 1v1 sense a Stun, timed right, can lower or stop A LOT of damage you would have taken. This is actually my #1 on my list of what was broken on this class, Phantom Rush being nerfed on damage and taking so long to resolve if you even manage to build it up is for sure #2.