We did it! Amazing DRK changes!

[Shurrikhan]

I think DRK is fine now. You have to remember that TBN gets stronger over the course of an expansion

No more so than any advantage in % mit gets more out of that increasing HP pool or potency-based heals increase as a result of increased AP...

Mostly agreed on the rest, ofc.

[inhaledcorn]

I think DRK is fine now. You have to remember that TBN gets stronger over the course of an expansion because as tanks our health pool increases more than other jobs. Any additional healing we get would require a damage nerf. If AD cost a large amount of mana instead of on a 60s cooldown it would solve the dungeon issues.

The problem DRK faces is in lower level dungeons before you get TBN. Thats where the job fails as a tank because it was never readjusted after the change to AD back in early Stormblood.

This is a double-edged sword. DRK needs the shield to break in order for TBN to be refunded, and it can be hard if you have more HP and defense. Other tanks don't have this problem with their short mits. They just press a button and get all the benefits. DRK has to make sure they or the person they put it on take enough damage for it to break. It's a pretty good defensive ability, but it also has problems in comparison to the other tanks.

[Carighan]

This is a double-edged sword. DRK needs the shield to break in order for TBN to be refunded, and it can be hard if you have more HP and defense. Other tanks don't have this problem with their short mits. They just press a button and get all the benefits. DRK has to make sure they or the person they put it on take enough damage for it to break. It's a pretty good defensive ability, but it also has problems in comparison to the other tanks.

Yeah, I'm already at the point where during dungeon bosses, it always goes on somebody else, just to make sure it breaks on the small AoEs those bosses have. On myself I can only use it on the trash pulls.

[CidHeiral]

People complain about job homogenization then turn around and celebrate the tanks being made even more similar. Hilarious.

[AnjouMaaka]

People complain about job homogenization then turn around and celebrate the tanks being made even more similar. Hilarious.

I think you have the crowds mixed up in your head. None of the people complaining about homogenization are celebrating these changes cause they thought Dark Mind being magic only is "unique" which for them is somehow equivalent to "skill expression." They are clueless and think they are entitled to keeping that one thing that makes a job fun for them, even if it means the other 99% of players hate it and want it to be buffed or reworked.

I find it to be a good thing that the devs are finally striking that middle ground where they are only trying to please most, and ignoring the outliers. It's started having an effect on separating the wheat from the chaff.

[inhaledcorn]

People complain about job homogenization then turn around and celebrate the tanks being made even more similar. Hilarious.

There's a difference between "homogenization" and "uniqueness for the sake of being unique". If a job being unique is also giving it unique problems, then the solution is to make it more similar to its contemporaries. If PLD, WAR, and GNB don't have the problems that DRK has because DRK is "unique", then some of that uniqueness should be sacrificed for the sake of function. I mean, you can chop off your leg and call yourself unique, but you just make things much harder for yourself.

[Supersnow845]

There's a difference between "homogenization" and "uniqueness for the sake of being unique". If a job being unique is also giving it unique problems, then the solution is to make it more similar to its contemporaries. If PLD, WAR, and GNB don't have the problems that DRK has because DRK is "unique", then some of that uniqueness should be sacrificed for the sake of function. I mean, you can chop off your leg and call yourself unique, but you just make things much harder for yourself.

I mean DRK is/was uniquely tanky against magical based attacks. It was the only tank that could take TOP P6 damage without any outside influence during 6.x and it retains on average being able to take large hits better than the other 3 tanks. Is that not a unique point of advantage that DRK has. Why is it “uniquely” bad because it’s bad in dungeons. I mean don’t people defend WAR’s balance because it’s advantage is strongest in dungeons

[CidHeiral]

If a job being unique is also giving it unique problems, then the solution is to make it more similar to its contemporaries. If PLD, WAR, and GNB don't have the problems that DRK has because DRK is "unique", then some of that uniqueness should be sacrificed for the sake of function.

Unique jobs will by definition all have "unique problems" because they will have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't want jobs to have any weaknesses then you can't also complain about homogenization. The two positions are incompatible.

To be clear, people can be on whatever side of the issue they want, I don't care. It's the contradiction of people with one foot on both sides that I found humorous.

[Lyth]

Unique jobs will by definition all have "unique problems" because they will have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't want jobs to have any weaknesses then you can't also complain about homogenization.

If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board. Shake it Off is a flat shield effect using 15-21% max HP, works on all damage types, has a 300 potency heal and a 100 potency regen effect for 15 seconds. The break even point for %DR effects like Heart of Light and Dark Missionary is when the total incoming damage across all hits exceeds 150-210% max HP for magical damage, and 300-410% max HP for physical damage, after all other raidwide mitigation effects have been considered. And that's after putting pressure on the design team to change it for years.

Are you able to explain the trade-off here? Because it seems to me that one job is just consistently better than the others defensively. It gets even worse when you look at Holmgang, which is the best invuln with no downside. It always seems that the homogenization argument gets trotted out whenever people want to defend their advantages over others. Show me that players are willing to take on unique drawbacks for all those advantages, and then we'll talk about job identity.

[Shurrikhan]

If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board. Shake it Off is a flat shield effect using 15-21% max HP, works on all damage types, has a 300 potency heal and a 100 potency regen effect for 15 seconds. The break even point for %DR effects like Heart of Light and Dark Missionary is when the total incoming damage across all hits exceeds 150-210% max HP for magical damage, and 300-410% max HP for physical damage, after all other raidwide mitigation effects have been considered. And that's after putting pressure on the design team to change it for years.

Well, surely, it's just that Warrior, in turn for superior raid mitigation (and an invuln that's often the best in practice in any meaningful content), lacks damage, control over their output dynamics, specific utility, and/or personal sustain. ...Right?