Thread: 7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

After that though? What can you really do to advance the job? It would be completely streamlined. Every animation would be modernized, the burst window would be as full as it should realistically be(I find it overwhelmingly packed as is, but life surge and WWT make it more complicated than it would be in this idea), and everything would flow naturally. I guess they could make additions to our combat outside of burst, but it's a delicate balance.

Oh I'd mostly want jobs to break away from the "all the exact same combat design with visual differences"-mold. Meaning I'd want reworks for all combat jobs that heavily heterogenize them.

My big idea for Dragoon would be to make many GCDs "jumps" of 1.5x-2.0x GCD timer, and while airborne you get a targetting cursor akin to the PvP LB, and while airborne you're invulnerable. Center the job around jumps and airtime, 105%!

Originally Posted by Carighan

Oh I'd mostly want jobs to break away from the "all the exact same combat design with visual differences"-mold. Meaning I'd want reworks for all combat jobs that heavily heterogenize them.

My big idea for Dragoon would be to make many GCDs "jumps" of 1.5x-2.0x GCD timer, and while airborne you get a targetting cursor akin to the PvP LB, and while airborne you're invulnerable. Center the job around jumps and airtime, 105%!

Hmm lol, maybe they could do that for pvp but I would prefer to keep pve dragoon similar to how it already is. I really like how it plays and it is extremely satisfying, I just wish it was a little bit cleaner and more streamlined.

Or maybe the future of job design should be "limited mode" versions of the existing jobs, where they really go wild with the ability designs. They could have really in depth job quests that way like the blue mage does and it would give them a ton of creative freedom over how the jobs play, since they wouldn't have to balance them around the main battle content.

Since the jobs are already pretty much full and approaching a dead end of development, it's either 1) rework entirely and scrap nearly everything, 2) focus on overhauling the low level experience, or 3) give each job a limited version that is really unique.

Originally Posted by Carighan

Having played around it with a bit now, I also don't really see a downside.

I don't like the current Dragoon design. At all. But 3 Nastrond -> 1 Nastrond seems positive, tbh. There's no need for the extra-RSI of pressing Nastrond 3 times, mentally you're not doing much more than going through rote button motions anyways. Might as well cut that down, give your hands a better time, and have exactly as 0 brain engagement as before.

Does Dragoon need a rework? For sure. But this change doesn't hurt it. There's nothing left to hurt anyways. :P

After playing a bit more myself I have no idea where you're coming from. One minute windows are very boring now with so few buttons to press, and as I stated initially at levels below 100 there's just nothing to do ever. At level 70 after a Jump, Mirage Dive and your one Nastrond your one minute "burst" is finished, if you can even call it that. Again, I don't necessarily mind it being a little less busy during 2 minute windows at 100, but god this was not the way to do it, because everything that isn't that scenario feels significantly more boring. It's pushed me into basically maining Dancer in the new Ultimate because at least they have some variance and some stuff to build toward.

Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

After playing a bit more myself I have no idea where you're coming from. One minute windows are very boring now with so few buttons to press, and as I stated initially at levels below 100 there's just nothing to do ever. At level 70 after a Jump, Mirage Dive and your one Nastrond your one minute "burst" is finished, if you can even call it that. Again, I don't necessarily mind it being a little less busy during 2 minute windows at 100, but god this was not the way to do it, because everything that isn't that scenario feels significantly more boring. It's pushed me into basically maining Dancer in the new Ultimate because at least they have some variance and some stuff to build toward.

Ah, yeah I can see how others think differently there than me.

To me, mechanical complexity in dexterity need to the player is a kind of complexity that yields no depth in a static-rotation setup (which if we're being honest all combat jobs currently are). That is, I find it superfluous. If my rotation is static either way, all having to press 3 buttons every 2.5s instead of 1 button does is give me RSI faster. And RSI is not a good thing, so that setup isn't a good thing. Either way I mentally am zoned out since it requires no thought to follow this rotation - that's why the devs do it that way so we can all focus on the fight mechanics.

And hence to me, there's no "loss" in having 2 extra free oGCD weaving spots. Honestly they could make the money alternating combat sequence an autocast, and that'd actually be more interesting (since it plays on its own that keeps me at least marginally on my toes for positionals). But it'd be exactly as "complex" as the current one. And it's the same with the excessive weaving to me.

But I know others really like mechanical complexity, so it's a very personal thing, and I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but fair enough.

Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

After playing a bit more myself I have no idea where you're coming from. One minute windows are very boring now with so few buttons to press, and as I stated initially at levels below 100 there's just nothing to do ever. At level 70 after a Jump, Mirage Dive and your one Nastrond your one minute "burst" is finished, if you can even call it that. Again, I don't necessarily mind it being a little less busy during 2 minute windows at 100, but god this was not the way to do it, because everything that isn't that scenario feels significantly more boring. It's pushed me into basically maining Dancer in the new Ultimate because at least they have some variance and some stuff to build toward.

That's why my suggestion is really good, especially if they introduce it at level 70(which they 100% should). Since it would be based on boost jump and the second mirage dive being available as a followup combo to the first mirage dive used in LotD it would be used in every burst window.

Everyone is asking for more jump abilities and a better low level experience, this is the best way to implement that. It fits the job's design direction too since we're getting so many followup oGCDs already. Why not add even more.

Originally Posted by Carighan

To me, mechanical complexity in dexterity need to the player is a kind of complexity that yields no depth in a static-rotation setup (which if we're being honest all combat jobs currently are). That is, I find it superfluous. If my rotation is static either way, all having to press 3 buttons every 2.5s instead of 1 button does is give me RSI faster. And RSI is not a good thing, so that setup isn't a good thing. Either way I mentally am zoned out since it requires no thought to follow this rotation - that's why the devs do it that way so we can all focus on the fight mechanics.

And hence to me, there's no "loss" in having 2 extra free oGCD weaving spots. Honestly they could make the money alternating combat sequence an autocast, and that'd actually be more interesting (since it plays on its own that keeps me at least marginally on my toes for positionals). But it'd be exactly as "complex" as the current one. And it's the same with the excessive weaving to me.

You are not entirely wrong here. On a different thought though - if a job offers no mechanical complexity in dexterity, and no mechanical complexity in interacting parts, then the sensation of pushing your buttons right gets less rewarding. As you say by yourself, most of the combat sequence can be pretty much put on autocast at this point, many rotation are incredibly static. For some people here in this thread, being able to be dexterous enough to hit all those oGCDs in the right timeframe was something to be happy about.
(That being said, I can't see how only having to look at positionals and not caring if the next button you press is the right one is somehow more interesting than doing both, but hey, if that is how you feel, that is how you feel )

However, others in this thread brought up another issue which plays into this entire discussion:
the experience of playing a job with an unfinished skillset.

At level 100, you may not feel the removal of 2 Nastronds that much gameplay wise, but the further you go down in the level ladder, the less tools you have available. Square has severly neglected the feel of classes outside of max level for years now, and it gets worse with each expansion. Perhaps the level sync system may need a revamp, but thats for an entirely different thread I'd say.

Originally Posted by Carighan

Ah, yeah I can see how others think differently there than me.

To me, mechanical complexity in dexterity need to the player is a kind of complexity that yields no depth in a static-rotation setup (which if we're being honest all combat jobs currently are). That is, I find it superfluous. If my rotation is static either way, all having to press 3 buttons every 2.5s instead of 1 button does is give me RSI faster. And RSI is not a good thing, so that setup isn't a good thing. Either way I mentally am zoned out since it requires no thought to follow this rotation - that's why the devs do it that way so we can all focus on the fight mechanics.

I mentioned this in another thread but a massive issue in FFXIV job design is there is no meta-gameplay or interactive elements or mechanics to engage with inside the job kits. "Pressing lots of buttons" is really all the jobs have going for them. It's why many players really feel it when even a single button press is removed. Because the jobs have nothing else to fall back on as far as player engagement.

I would be completely down for fewer button presses that are more meaningful and amalgamating basic combos into a single button, but SE would have to add in some more engaging mechanics to the job kits. The way job design is right now though removing buttons directly translates into removing engagement, and it's why there's always a massive outcry whenever it's done.

Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

That's why my suggestion is really good, especially if they introduce it at level 70(which they 100% should). Since it would be based on boost jump and the second mirage dive being available as a followup combo to the first mirage dive used in LotD it would be used in every burst window.

Everyone is asking for more jump abilities and a better low level experience, this is the best way to implement that. It fits the job's design direction too since we're getting so many followup oGCDs already. Why not add even more.

I mean, yeah, that would do it. That's why the only real critique I had of this idea was that I don't think it's likely that SE would introduce two new skills with new animations mid-expansion, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it if they surprised me and did give us something like this.