Talent tree (spec) suggestion

[dspguy]

Instead of a talent tree, I'd rather see SE demand more "talent" by the player. Go back to having tank stances with damage down and Cleric Stance with damage up/heal down.

Take tank stance for a second. Enmity is a resource. A tank keeps hate whether they are 1 "unit" of enmity above #2 on the hate list or 1 million "units" above. This resource should have value. We should be able to turn off our ability to accrue hate at an absurd rate (and it IS absurd) and increase our damage instead.

When it comes to enmity, it is possible to do tank swaps while one of the tanks has NO idea what they are doing. Let's say MT is clueless - MT takes the tankbuster with debuff... OT provokes. Takes the hit. OT Shirks. Hate is back on MT. MT does nothing.

Let's say OT is clueless. MT takes the tankbuster and the debuff. MT Shirks. OT takes the hit. MT Provokes. Hate is back on MT. OT had to do nothing.

And while they are at it, they shouldn't have changed accessories. HP is another resource. You are alive whether you have 1 HP or 200,000 HP. If you don't need 200,000, exchange some of that HP for more STR (and more damage). Change the damage formula again and let tanks use STR accessories and meld STR.

None of this will ever happen of course. The game is simplified in almost every way imaginable. But, a return to ARR tank stance and healer stance would demand higher skill by the playerbase.

[Carighan]

Go back to having tank stances with damage down and Cleric Stance with damage up/heal down

That did not work while "more damage = more good" remains true. There is no incentive to be outside of high-damage-mode, ever, it's a crutch because you, your gear, your group or the fight is bad and mean to you. As soon as you can, you go damage-mode-only. Because the boss being dead is the best mitigation possible. And at that point, you might as well just not have the second stance and all the smoke&mirrors making you believe having two stances and the emnity-dance from them matters, no?

... ah yeah, that's why it works the way it does nowadays. xD

[dspguy]

Unless tanks are top DPS, I don't see how they maintain hate without tank stance on, at least a little bit. So, they'd have to enmity dance.

[Mikey_R]

Instead of a talent tree, I'd rather see SE demand more "talent" by the player. Go back to having tank stances with damage down and Cleric Stance with damage up/heal down.

Tank stances didn't work as intended and were more of a punishment for tanks rather than a benefit. All I will say on Cleric stance is that as a less than average healer, I didn't enjoy Cleric Stance.

Take tank stance for a second. Enmity is a resource. A tank keeps hate whether they are 1 "unit" of enmity above #2 on the hate list or 1 million "units" above. This resource should have value. We should be able to turn off our ability to accrue hate at an absurd rate (and it IS absurd) and increase our damage instead.

You never said how you wanted to increase damage damage, so, how?

When it comes to enmity, it is possible to do tank swaps while one of the tanks has NO idea what they are doing. Let's say MT is clueless - MT takes the tankbuster with debuff... OT provokes. Takes the hit. OT Shirks. Hate is back on MT. MT does nothing.

Let's say OT is clueless. MT takes the tankbuster and the debuff. MT Shirks. OT takes the hit. MT Provokes. Hate is back on MT. OT had to do nothing.

For the vast majority of tank busters, once the cast starts, it isn't changing target. Plus, any content where a tank swap actually matters (Extreme and above), the tanks should know how to tank swap, making this a non issue.

And while they are at it, they shouldn't have changed accessories. HP is another resource. You are alive whether you have 1 HP or 200,000 HP. If you don't need 200,000, exchange some of that HP for more STR (and more damage). Change the damage formula again and let tanks use STR accessories and meld STR.

Then it just comes to finding the minimum VIT needed to survive and using enough accessories to hit that limit. This is basically how accuracy worked in the past, and that wasn't generally liked.

None of this will ever happen of course. The game is simplified in almost every way imaginable. But, a return to ARR tank stance and healer stance would demand higher skill by the playerbase.

No it wouldn't. Tank stances never achieved what people thought they did. It was always, tank stance > enmity combo, go to DPS stance and stay there for the rest of the fight. It would be the same now. There are so many other things I won't go into except 1. How would you accurately track how much enmity you have relative to everyone else so you can min/max as much as possible.

[dspguy]

You never said how you wanted to increase damage damage, so, how?

Tank stance up - damage down, enmity up.
Tank stance off, damage up. No enmity. Just like it was back in ARR.

For the vast majority of tank busters, once the cast starts, it isn't changing target. Plus, any content where a tank swap actually matters (Extreme and above), the tanks should know how to tank swap, making this a non issue.

That's the whole point. The way tanking is designed right now, the tank counterpart doesn't have to know anything. I've tested this on EX3 as noted in my previous post. So it's a double tankbuster with a debuff (pretty standard stuff). MT would get hit first, OT vokes during first tankbuster and then eats the second tankbuster. I can Voke/Shirk or Shirk/Voke without the other tank even having to do anything. Because managing enmity means nothing anymore.

Then it just comes to finding the minimum VIT needed to survive and using enough accessories to hit that limit. This is basically how accuracy worked in the past, and that wasn't generally liked.

Yes, it does come down to finding minimum VIT needed. At least there's something to think about. I was a fan of accuracy - gave us something to think about gear-wise instead of it simply being "highest iLvl with least Skill/Spell speed." How engaging...

No it wouldn't. Tank stances never achieved what people thought they did. It was always, tank stance > enmity combo, go to DPS stance and stay there for the rest of the fight. It would be the same now. There are so many other things I won't go into except 1. How would you accurately track how much enmity you have relative to everyone else so you can min/max as much as possible.

The built-in hate meter? Right now, it has zero value. MT is always full with an "A". Everyone else is empty with 2-8, with the caveat that if you have an OT they are likely almost full at #2. If anything, the hate meter has no value right now. No one needs it. It is one of the reasons some players utilize damage meters so they can see "how" far ahead they are, since it isn't like you can tell by using the enmity meter.

It's ok to disagree. Some players like things having flavor (stance dancing), some complication (gear selection) and some collaboration (tank swaps). In the current game, we have essentially none of that. I'm not saying everything they changed since ARR was bad. They did a lot right. But oversimplifying almost every aspect of the game takes much of the joy and satisfaction out of an achievement.

[Mikey_R]

That's the whole point. The way tanking is designed right now, the tank counterpart doesn't have to know anything. I've tested this on EX3 as noted in my previous post. So it's a double tankbuster with a debuff (pretty standard stuff). MT would get hit first, OT vokes during first tankbuster and then eats the second tankbuster. I can Voke/Shirk or Shirk/Voke without the other tank even having to do anything. Because managing enmity means nothing anymore.

But you won't get away with that every fight, which I did allude to. However, doesn't stop the fact it is literally a non-issue (not to mention it would work exactly the same if tank stances were involved).

Yes, it does come down to finding minimum VIT needed. At least there's something to think about. I was a fan of accuracy - gave us something to think about gear-wise instead of it simply being "highest iLvl with least Skill/Spell speed." How engaging...

Getting to a required minimum isn't much more 'engaging' either. It would just be a case of, put the stats into a calculator, and it spits out your BiS.

The built-in hate meter? Right now, it has zero value. MT is always full with an "A". Everyone else is empty with 2-8, with the caveat that if you have an OT they are likely almost full at #2. If anything, the hate meter has no value right now. No one needs it. It is one of the reasons some players utilize damage meters so they can see "how" far ahead they are, since it isn't like you can tell by using the enmity meter.

This next bit should have followed on if you had actually properly responded to what you quoted and that was the fact you wanted to use enmity as a resource (of which you responded with how tank stances worked in the past, which is irrelevant). The point here being, if you want to use enmity as a resource, which implies you want it to be expended in some way, you need to be able to accurately track how much you have. Not just that, how far ahead of second place you are. I was curious about how you would solve that problem, which would also highlight how much thought you put into the idea.

It's ok to disagree. Some players like things having flavor (stance dancing), some complication (gear selection) and some collaboration (tank swaps). In the current game, we have essentially none of that. I'm not saying everything they changed since ARR was bad. They did a lot right. But oversimplifying almost every aspect of the game takes much of the joy and satisfaction out of an achievement.

If 'flavour' is use tank stance to get an enmity lead, then swap to DPS stance for the rest of the fight, then that is a very low bar. Gear selection complication? Not really. Tank Swaps? Already done, though apparently not so much on DT so far. But, how many of these things are actually solved by tank stances? 1. The whole stance dance thing, which, again, wouldn't accomplish what you wanted. I have made many, many posts that are way too long going over all the details of the old stances and how they didn't accomplish what people wanted from them, and how they were a punishment for the tank, rather than a reward. If you want to make a similar system, you need to rework it into something better.