The Formula won't change

[Erzaa]

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.

I did the ARR and HW EX's synced, they were nice. But from SB onward, they seemed to change, the mechanics just became more and more punishing. I don't know, maybe the ARR and HW ones were more punishing on release, and because I came in late and had the benefit of the Allagan tomestones gear, they were easier?

It took around 1 - 2 hours to complete each of them.

I jumped back in recently with the Zoraal Ja EX with some friends, we put up a PF for an extra two people, and it just wasn't any fun. I wasn't coordinated enough for that silly stack moving mechanic. We tried for an hour, and even though the PF said blind and practice, we still had people jumping in and out constantly, after the second or third wipe.

Edit: I also really enjoyed doing the blue mage challenges for the titles and the rewards (the umbrella)

That kind of content seems to be the perfect difficulty for me.

It's not fun to me. All respect to those of you who enjoy it, play it to your heart's content, but I much prefer the slow solo deep dungeons challenge. I don't have to wait for other people, I don't have to watch them get frustrated and leave, I don't have to feel bad about my mistakes and I can just go again and learn at my own pace.

[Valence]

I did the ARR and HW EX's synced, they were nice. But from SB onward, they seemed to change, the mechanics just became more and more punishing. I don't know, maybe the ARR and HW ones were more punishing on release, and because I came in late and had the benefit of the Allagan tomestones gear, they were easier?

It took around 1 - 2 hours to complete each of them.

I jumped back in recently with the Zoraal Ja EX with some friends, we put up a PF for an extra two people, and it just wasn't any fun. I wasn't coordinated enough for that silly stack moving mechanic. We tried for an hour, and even though the PF said blind and practice, we still had people jumping in and out constantly, after the second or third wipe.

There is definitely overgear and powercreep potency playing a big part, but ARR/HW is also a very different type of battle system and game where challenges and concerns focused on different things. The encounter mechanics and design is just different and your post is just a good example of it.

I'm curious... How do you read the patch notes for the upcoming 7.1 and come to the conclusion that the game caters to casuals?

Us casuals, all we're getting is 3 hours of story, and 45min per week to repeat ad nauseum the same 24 man raid, at best. Raiders are getting the new Chaotic, a new Ultimate, the next Unreal and a new Extreme trial.

And I assure you, it's very possible for casuals to complete all the casual content. I know, because I've done it. From ARR to DT, it takes around 3,5 - 4 years to complete every single piece of casual content, and then you're left with FATEs and Hunts.

All I have to look forward to for the next 4 months is attempting my solo Deep Dungeon runs.

In my personal opinion, they need to tone back on all the endgame hardcore raids and give casuals more interesting and fun things to do.

I'd assume that in SE's eyes, they do shove into casual everything that's not challenging content, which goes from crafting to treasure maps, fates, sightseeing, and everything that comes with the vanilla expansion... which kinda blows.

[Voidmage]

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.

I did up to Savage before and nowadays only do Ex fights.

I only speak for me but maybe others also see it like that.
The problem I got with Savage (and Ex if it wasn’t just faster and more forgiving) is that there isn’t really much “skill” involved. It’s just know where to stand and keep the gcd rolling.
No positioning the boss as the tank mostly, no usage of any other things like “sleep” for mobs and so on. Just know the mechanics to a T.
I honestly stopped having fun in Savage.

Add to that every strategy tilting towards melee players even in EW (very annoying on BLM sometimes) and unnecessary body checks even in Ex and it will be annoying.

What I’m trying to say is that I think it’s not just the difficulty letting casuals hesitate with Ex but also the design itself.
Not everyone wants to look up a guide. Many casuals actually like to do dungeons blind for example.
The modern raiding scene though is almost completely “follow guide to a T”. Blind prog is usually only found at the very beginning.
Many PF groups also often have extremely high ilvl requirements just so they don’t have to waste any time.

[Kohashi]

yes, that it is indeed, my friend. that is what you and me both experience, I would say.



Except the game used to be more than this, and now it is not.
ARR started with a relic grind that brought you all over content that existed in 2.0, Heavensward had relic grind start with 3.1. ARR began deep dungeons, Stormblood brought us Field Operations.
Raids in ARR und HW still had some trash in them. Dungeons were less homogenized and became more so over time.

You don't get to act like there has not already been a 180-degree shift to solely room with boss content and ask people to leave instead of voicing their valid criticisms. If the game changed and evolved once, it can still change and evolve.

The content that was not room with bosses just slowly disappeared, and people who were here for other content have a right to ask for what they used to receive.

Games evolve and change in time, thank god!

If the game no longer appeals to you, other games might.

No matter how many topics and how much feedback is given, devs/ corporations understand only one language, money. As long as there are enough people that fuel them and that are content with the changes there will be no incentive to change the formula.

[ovIm]

Games evolve and change in time, thank god!

If the game no longer appeals to you, other games might.

No matter how many topics and how much feedback is given, devs/ corporations understand only one language, money. As long as there are enough people that fuel them and that are content with the changes there will be no incentive to change the formula.

unfortunately, it has not evolved, it has devolved, no matter how much you try to spin this in your favor, it now has less variation, not more. You cannot deny that in an mmorpg, a broad variety of different content that attracts all manners of players is healthy for the games population and thus the bottom line for the company. Hells, i don't play Ultimates, and I retired from Savages, but I don't want SqEx to stop doing that content because it attracts players and it brings raiders joy.

And yes, companies only understand money. Remind me again why Yoshi-P asked players not to retire from the game because long lived content will come in the future? Most likely not because players may have done what you say and unsubscribed/voiced their reasons for doing so, no?

[Valence]

I did up to Savage before and nowadays only do Ex fights.

I only speak for me but maybe others also see it like that.
The problem I got with Savage (and Ex if it wasn’t just faster and more forgiving) is that there isn’t really much “skill” involved. It’s just know where to stand and keep the gcd rolling.
No positioning the boss as the tank mostly, no usage of any other things like “sleep” for mobs and so on. Just know the mechanics to a T.
I honestly stopped having fun in Savage.

Add to that every strategy tilting towards melee players even in EW (very annoying on BLM sometimes) and unnecessary body checks even in Ex and it will be annoying.

What I’m trying to say is that I think it’s not just the difficulty letting casuals hesitate with Ex but also the design itself.
Not everyone wants to look up a guide. Many casuals actually like to do dungeons blind for example.
The modern raiding scene though is almost completely “follow guide to a T”. Blind prog is usually only found at the very beginning.
Many PF groups also often have extremely high ilvl requirements just so they don’t have to waste any time.

To be fair even blind prog to me isn't fun in current models. It's all about figuring out the DDR patterns. It's not like if it was figuring how the boss gets damage stacks when something happens, or how to juggle resources or different enemies with different plates going and making choices about it. It's just figuring out a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces are all donut, point blank, stack, spread, partners.

No matter how many topics and how much feedback is given, devs/ corporations understand only one language, money. As long as there are enough people that fuel them and that are content with the changes there will be no incentive to change the formula.

I honestly wish I could vote with my wallet on the menu, you know? Pick up the content I like, and give the middle finger to the content I don't by not paying for it. That way the game would probably cost me like thrice less and the "corporation" as you say would understand what I hate with my money, but alas, the only thing I can do is whine on those forums. Trust me, I'd like nothing more than to waste less of my time with more efficient wallet solutions.

[Voidmage]

To be fair even blind prog to me isn't fun in current models. It's all about figuring out the DDR patterns. It's not like if it was figuring how the boss gets damage stacks when something happens, or how to juggle resources or different enemies with different plates going and making choices about it. It's just figuring out a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces are all donut, point blank, stack, spread, partners.

Yeah, I think I agree.
Tbh what is the answer to that or better asked, how acceptable would the raiding community be to a different approach from time to time.

Something like CLL final fight where your party splits (one fighting one boss while the other one fights a second) or simply the gimmicks from coils where the environment like towers also had a role.

Or an “evolution” of old mechanics.
For example I really liked how the tankbusters in Valigarmanda worked.
It gave tanks a reason to swap and the party also had to do something.

Just more then know your spot in the party and where you have to stand.

[Kohashi]

unfortunately, it has not evolved, it has devolved, no matter how much you try to spin this in your favor, it now has less variation, not more. You cannot deny that in an mmorpg, a broad variety of different content that attracts all manners of players is healthy for the games population and thus the bottom line for the company. Hells, i don't play Ultimates, and I retired from Savages, but I don't want SqEx to stop doing that content because it attracts players and it brings raiders joy.

And yes, companies only understand money. Remind me again why Yoshi-P asked players not to retire from the game because long lived content will come in the future? Most likely not because players may have done what you say and unsubscribed/voiced their reasons for doing so, no?

That's your take on it, which is fair and you have the right to feel that way. I, on the other hand, don't share it nor do I see FF14 as my life purpose or mission.

If I don't find enjoyment here. I find it somewhere else. Nobody and nothing keeps me tied to this game and if I don't have a good time I stop playing. I don't enjoy wallowing in self-inflicted misery, not when there are so many better options. Perhaps not all in 1 place, but then again, time is def. not a commodity I have in abundance anyway.

Yoshi-P is a representative of SQE and by definition, he has the company's interests at heart and not yours. You should have your best interests and you should not expect somebody else to represent you.

[Arlythe]

We have those already with criterion.
Even more savage is exactly not what this game needs.
We already have a good amount of challenging content for high end players in the form of savage, ultimate, chaotic in the future, Duels (yes some of them are really hard). Almost every mode has a savage version nowadays.
We need more things on moderate difficulty at most like CLL or Bozja critical engagements.

We have a lot of savage content, true, but criterion dungeons are really not the answer for people who want to do various amount of hard content, but can't find a large enough static or who just want to play with a smaller group of friends or FC mates.
That's kinda like telling a viera player to be happy about all those nice hats in the game.
And now the devs put in more variety in even larger groups with the chaotic stuff, which is a step in the wrong direction tbh.
That doesn't have to mean we can't have more bozja-esque content.

We have more content than we've ever had. We didn't used to have 2 Ultimates, 3 Variant and 3 Criterion Dungeons, Field Operations, Deep Dungeons, Chaos Raids and misc content like Ishgard Restoration/Island Sanctuary/Cosmisc Exploration in ARR. Their older content like FATEs and hunts didn't used to be as rewarding but now have mount grinds. These things were added to the formula over time, including in recent expansions, but people want to pretend it doesn't exist and say the game is in maintenance mode.

That's what I usually like to say.
Just because there's not enough content that you deem playworthy, doesn't mean there's no content.

Well if it has 3 more expansions left to live, it's 6 to 7 more years, I'd say that's fine by me.

They already said they set up the story for the next 10 years and Yoshida seems confident enough that he can keep working on it until retiring.
Considering how long a lot of japanese people who work in artistic jobs keep on working past their retirement age, I'd say we'll be able to keep playing for quite some time.

[Alice_Rivers]

Yoshi-P is a representative of SQE and by definition, he has the company's interests at heart and not yours. You should have your best interests and you should not expect somebody else to represent you.

It seems to me that Yoshi-P's job should be to balance our interests against SE's interests since catering to our interests is how SE makes money. As evidenced by the fact that FF14 is still generating enough profit to keep SE afloat while they sink project after project that clearly do not cater to our interests.