The Formula won't change

[Kohashi]

Us casuals, all we're getting is 3 hours of story, and 45min per week to repeat ad nauseum the same 24 man raid, at best. Raiders are getting the new Chaotic, a new Ultimate, the next Unreal and a new Extreme trial.

There seems to be a huge misconception of what casual actually means. There is no reason not to try all that the game has to offer, including EX, savage, and ultimates. Anything can be cleared if you are willing to invest enough time into doing so. The only factor that sets apart a casual to a hardcore player is the amount of time they are willing to invest.

Plenty of groups out there that tackle "hardcore" content in a casual manner. Plenty of groups out there that are comprised of very new, and with a very basic role understanding of what "hard" content means. The only thing that is missing is the willingness to attempt it.

While varied content is a good thing, those challenges are part of the game's diversity.

[KillaKilala]

I'm curious... How do you read the patch notes for the upcoming 7.1 and come to the conclusion that the game caters to casuals?

Us casuals, all we're getting is 3 hours of story, and 45min per week to repeat ad nauseum the same 24 man raid, at best. Raiders are getting the new Chaotic, a new Ultimate, the next Unreal and a new Extreme trial.

And I assure you, it's very possible for casuals to complete all the casual content. I know, because I've done it. From ARR to DT, it takes around 3,5 - 4 years to complete every single piece of casual content, and then you're left with FATEs and Hunts.

All I have to look forward to for the next 4 months is attempting my solo Deep Dungeon runs.

In my personal opinion, they need to tone back on all the endgame hardcore raids and give casuals more interesting and fun things to do.

I’m judging by the previous expansions. In EW we got variant dungeons, island sanctuary, relics with zero grind. Not to mention devs are too scared to make content more difficult, in the LL Yoshi-P said that the 7.1 dungeon will be easier than the expert dungeons… For real? Were these difficult? You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics. Why would I care about the aoes if they’re not going to kill me? Devs probably want to make the MSQ as accessible as possible, but maybe it’s better not to tie content to the msq or let giga casuals go straight to the explorer mode.

[Jeeqbit]

There seems to be a huge misconception of what casual actually means.

While true, it is used in different contexts:
- Casual in the sense time availability. You can do even high-end content casually.
- Casual in the amount of attention provided to content and the amount of research and practice done.

For the first case, story content is literally designed to be cleared in 1-2 pulls normally. Which is respectful of limited time availability. Whereas high-end content is rarely progged through that quickly unless it's something like Innocence or Byakko. Thus it is correct to call story content "casual content".

For the second case, a lot of people who do high-end content casually (not saying everyone) don't invest the time into preparation like watching guides (perhaps due to lack of time) or lack the attention (perhaps due to getting home from work and not having eaten and being exhausted, depending on what work they do).

Now there are casual players that do high-end content but are really good at it, but often I find there was once a time when they were not casual and this is what allowed them to understand the game enough to be so good at it. Even so, them being able to commit to a static hinges on if they can be available at a consistent time each week, which not everyone can (for example random shift work), or they need to save their brainpower for work they do.

I do think a certain percentage of players who rule out high-end duties are not actually doing it because of being casual players though. I think there are a lot of cases where this is a cover for what is actually anxiety or a mistaken belief that the content is more hardcore than it actually is (ie. thinking extremes are super sweaty hardcore content when they are practical to PF).

[Kohashi]

While true, it is used in different contexts:
- Casual in the sense time availability. You can do even high-end content casually.
- Casual in the amount of attention provided to content and the amount of research and practice done.

For the first case, story content is literally designed to be cleared in 1-2 pulls normally. Which is respectful of limited time availability. Whereas high-end content is rarely progged through that quickly unless it's something like Innocence or Byakko. Thus it is correct to call story content "casual content".

For the second case, a lot of people who do high-end content casually (not saying everyone) don't invest the time into preparation like watching guides (perhaps due to lack of time) or lack the attention (perhaps due to getting home from work and not having eaten and being exhausted, depending on what work they do).

Now there are casual players that do high-end content but are really good at it, but often I find there was once a time when they were not casual and this is what allowed them to understand the game enough to be so good at it. Even so, them being able to commit to a static hinges on if they can be available at a consistent time each week, which not everyone can (for example random shift work), or they need to save their brainpower for work they do.

I do think a certain percentage of players who rule out high-end duties are not actually doing it because of being casual players though. I think there are a lot of cases where this is a cover for what is actually anxiety or a mistaken belief that the content is more hardcore than it actually is (ie. thinking extremes are super sweaty hardcore content when they are practical to PF).

Let me say this.

If you are willing to sit in a forum and provide your feedback or sit in the game logged in at all, you might as well just try those as well.

Progression comes with time and repetition.

There is nowhere stated that X fight should be cleared in Y amount of time or pulls. There are a LOT of groups that prioritize fun, banter, and the experience overall over the clear itself. Sure there are sweaty hardcore groups but those are very few and far in between.

The bottom line is, that some just limit themselves only to have a reason to complain and cry that the world is against them when in fact the game offers a lot of diversity and the only thing you need to do is to take action and find/make a group that suits your needs and schedule.

[ovIm]

There is nowhere stated that X fight should be cleared in Y amount of time or pulls. There are a LOT of groups that prioritize fun, banter, and the experience overall over the clear itself. Sure there are sweaty hardcore groups but those are very few and far in between.

I see more sweaty tryhard groups than chill casual ones personally. The chill ones are far and few between, from my own personal experience. There are a lot of people with a certain dedication and ambition when it comes to raiding.

Aside from that, maybe its also that this kind of raid encounters are just not everyones cup of tea? Because see here:

in fact the game offers a lot of diversity.

No it does not. Most content is "singular room with boss". (read - most, not all. I know there are exceptions, but the next non room with boss instanced content is over half a year away for when field operations drops.)

Trials? Singular room with boss.
Storymode/Savage Raid? Singular room with boss.
Chaotic? Singular room with boss, again.

Dungeons and 24 mans do at least change it up with some trash in between, but mostly, FF14 is bosses.

[Jeeqbit]

The bottom line is, that some just limit themselves only to have a reason to complain and cry that the world is against them when in fact the game offers a lot of diversity and the only thing you need to do is to take action and find/make a group that suits your needs and schedule.

That's really how I see it honestly. At the very, very least it's worth casual players trying: Extreme, Unreal or the first and second Savage floors. They are usually pretty realistic to prog through in PF (I mean depending on the tier, but I even got through the much fearmongered P10S in PF and helped lots of people clear it so there's that).

For anyone wondering about the Chaos Raid's difficulty, I think there's no reason not to jump into a prog party as a casual player. They can't make such large-scale content too difficult. They said themselves it's like Extreme or first floor savage difficulty. Which is just like I said above - very realistic to prog through casually in PF. They said that it can be done with 12 players, which suggests the other 12 can be somewhat clueless as long as half the raid knows what they're doing at any given moment. I remember when Yoshi-P pulled it, I just saw stuff like a donut AoE... it probably won't be that bad.

That said, I do think there is a need for content like Field Operations and relic grinds to work on casually. Which is why I'm glad we're getting one. It was conspicuous by its absence in Endwalker due to how much life it brought to Shadowbringers, because this sort of content brings people together who do all levels of content and it feels great and social.

[Erzaa]

I’m judging by the previous expansions. In EW we got variant dungeons, island sanctuary, relics with zero grind.

Endwalker also came with two Ultimates, the usual amount of Unreals, Extremes and Savages and Criterion dungeons, which weren't harder dungeons, they were Extreme - Savage level difficulty. The hardcore crowd was perfectly catered to in Endwalker as well. This time around, raiders are getting a completely new type of hardcore raid as well as all the previous raids. If the raid succeeds or fails like Criterion, that remains to be seen.

Not to mention devs are too scared to make content more difficult, in the LL Yoshi-P said that the 7.1 dungeon will be easier than the expert dungeons… For real? Were these difficult? You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics.

If anything, the devs can't scale content properly. They make casual content way too easy, they make raiding content way too hard. I've neither the patience, nor the energy, and time, to waste, banging my head against a wall, progging a fight. I leave that to the younger, more energetic, more skilled and experienced players. It's not for me. That also doesn't mean I want everything to be a joke. But, no, I don't feel like the MSQ content should be any harder than it is. It's supposed to be for everyone.

Having said that, you answered your own question

Devs probably want to make the MSQ as accessible as possible, but maybe it’s better not to tie content to the msq or let giga casuals go straight to the explorer mode.

You're not going to convince a corporation that's interested in profit, to stop catering to the very casual playerbase who want to breeze by the story without stress. That would lose them money. The MSQ is designed to be played by the lowest common denominator.

And the "giga casuals" are paying the same subscription you are. And all they get is the MSQ, and little bits of content like beast tribes or whatever. Most of them are probably happy with it. You're not going to find them joining your PF Savage prog. You're still going to get your hard and challenging content later. There's absolutely no reason to deride them for enjoying their entertainment differently to how you enjoy yours.

A neat solution could be a difficulty setting, you could choose a Normal or Hard version of the dungeon. But that would be hard to implement, as difficulty levels would segregate the playerbase, and then, how would the be handled in the DF? And, as I said before, they don't seem to have a middle ground. Everything is too easy or too hard and team oriented. They're terrible at just designing a Normal difficulty mode. I'm sure it's partly to how they design their content too. Once you've repeated the same fight with zero variations for the upteenth time, it's bound to get boring.

You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics. Why would I care about the aoes if they’re not going to kill me?

Sure, play like you want to play. But, you need to understand that you're not the only player in the game, other players may have disabilities, may have difficulties reading queues, maybe they're zoned out that day and tired... any number of things. And those players may find it harder than you do.

[Kohashi]

I see more sweaty tryhard groups than chill casual ones personally. The chill ones are far and few between, from my own personal experience. There are a lot of people with a certain dedication and ambition when it comes to raiding.

Aside from that, maybe its also that this kind of raid encounters are just not everyones cup of tea? Because see here:



No it does not. Most content is "singular room with boss". (read - most, not all. I know there are exceptions, but the next non room with boss instanced content is over half a year away for when field operations drops.)

Trials? Singular room with boss.
Storymode/Savage Raid? Singular room with boss.
Chaotic? Singular room with boss, again.

Dungeons and 24 mans do at least change it up with some trash in between, but mostly, FF14 is bosses.

That is a classic confirmation bias.

As long as you know what you are looking for, finding the right group is 75% already sorted. There are discord channels/communities/servers that you can join to find such groups. If you end up in a sweaty group then you either got unlucky or you didn't do your homework properly. It takes 5 minutes to ask the person recruiting what the goals are, as well as what the general atmosphere and consensus regarding the prog and pace.

Also if you argue that the game should make a 180-degree shift just because you find the singular room with the boss, not your cup of tea, then perhaps this game is actually not for you. Diversity doesn't have to be unidimensional and "singular room with boss" is how the core game design is.

No game should ever cater to people who just hate/dislike the game itself and the design. Some games did try that and failed abysmally.

[ovIm]

That is a classic confirmation bias.

yes, that it is indeed, my friend. that is what you and me both experience, I would say.

Also if you argue that the game should make a 180-degree shift just because you find the singular room with the boss, not your cup of tea, then perhaps this game is actually not for you. Diversity doesn't have to be unidimensional and "singular room with boss" is how the core game design is.

No game should ever cater to people who just hate/dislike the game itself and the design. Some games did try that and failed abysmally.

Except the game used to be more than this, and now it is not.
ARR started with a relic grind that brought you all over content that existed in 2.0, Heavensward had relic grind start with 3.1. ARR began deep dungeons, Stormblood brought us Field Operations.
Raids in ARR und HW still had some trash in them. Dungeons were less homogenized and became more so over time.

You don't get to act like there has not already been a 180-degree shift to solely room with boss content and ask people to leave instead of voicing their valid criticisms. If the game changed and evolved once, it can still change and evolve.

The content that was not room with bosses just slowly disappeared, and people who were here for other content have a right to ask for what they used to receive.

[Volgia]

Endwalker also came with two Ultimates, the usual amount of Unreals, Extremes and Savages and Criterion dungeons, which weren't harder dungeons, they were Extreme - Savage level difficulty. The hardcore crowd was perfectly catered to in Endwalker as well. This time around, raiders are getting a completely new type of hardcore raid as well as all the previous raids. If the raid succeeds or fails like Criterion, that remains to be seen.

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.