The Formula won't change

[Jeeqbit]

There seems to be a huge misconception of what casual actually means.

While true, it is used in different contexts:
- Casual in the sense time availability. You can do even high-end content casually.
- Casual in the amount of attention provided to content and the amount of research and practice done.

For the first case, story content is literally designed to be cleared in 1-2 pulls normally. Which is respectful of limited time availability. Whereas high-end content is rarely progged through that quickly unless it's something like Innocence or Byakko. Thus it is correct to call story content "casual content".

For the second case, a lot of people who do high-end content casually (not saying everyone) don't invest the time into preparation like watching guides (perhaps due to lack of time) or lack the attention (perhaps due to getting home from work and not having eaten and being exhausted, depending on what work they do).

Now there are casual players that do high-end content but are really good at it, but often I find there was once a time when they were not casual and this is what allowed them to understand the game enough to be so good at it. Even so, them being able to commit to a static hinges on if they can be available at a consistent time each week, which not everyone can (for example random shift work), or they need to save their brainpower for work they do.

I do think a certain percentage of players who rule out high-end duties are not actually doing it because of being casual players though. I think there are a lot of cases where this is a cover for what is actually anxiety or a mistaken belief that the content is more hardcore than it actually is (ie. thinking extremes are super sweaty hardcore content when they are practical to PF).

[Kohashi]

While true, it is used in different contexts:
- Casual in the sense time availability. You can do even high-end content casually.
- Casual in the amount of attention provided to content and the amount of research and practice done.

For the first case, story content is literally designed to be cleared in 1-2 pulls normally. Which is respectful of limited time availability. Whereas high-end content is rarely progged through that quickly unless it's something like Innocence or Byakko. Thus it is correct to call story content "casual content".

For the second case, a lot of people who do high-end content casually (not saying everyone) don't invest the time into preparation like watching guides (perhaps due to lack of time) or lack the attention (perhaps due to getting home from work and not having eaten and being exhausted, depending on what work they do).

Now there are casual players that do high-end content but are really good at it, but often I find there was once a time when they were not casual and this is what allowed them to understand the game enough to be so good at it. Even so, them being able to commit to a static hinges on if they can be available at a consistent time each week, which not everyone can (for example random shift work), or they need to save their brainpower for work they do.

I do think a certain percentage of players who rule out high-end duties are not actually doing it because of being casual players though. I think there are a lot of cases where this is a cover for what is actually anxiety or a mistaken belief that the content is more hardcore than it actually is (ie. thinking extremes are super sweaty hardcore content when they are practical to PF).

Let me say this.

If you are willing to sit in a forum and provide your feedback or sit in the game logged in at all, you might as well just try those as well.

Progression comes with time and repetition.

There is nowhere stated that X fight should be cleared in Y amount of time or pulls. There are a LOT of groups that prioritize fun, banter, and the experience overall over the clear itself. Sure there are sweaty hardcore groups but those are very few and far in between.

The bottom line is, that some just limit themselves only to have a reason to complain and cry that the world is against them when in fact the game offers a lot of diversity and the only thing you need to do is to take action and find/make a group that suits your needs and schedule.

[ovIm]

There is nowhere stated that X fight should be cleared in Y amount of time or pulls. There are a LOT of groups that prioritize fun, banter, and the experience overall over the clear itself. Sure there are sweaty hardcore groups but those are very few and far in between.

I see more sweaty tryhard groups than chill casual ones personally. The chill ones are far and few between, from my own personal experience. There are a lot of people with a certain dedication and ambition when it comes to raiding.

Aside from that, maybe its also that this kind of raid encounters are just not everyones cup of tea? Because see here:

in fact the game offers a lot of diversity.

No it does not. Most content is "singular room with boss". (read - most, not all. I know there are exceptions, but the next non room with boss instanced content is over half a year away for when field operations drops.)

Trials? Singular room with boss.
Storymode/Savage Raid? Singular room with boss.
Chaotic? Singular room with boss, again.

Dungeons and 24 mans do at least change it up with some trash in between, but mostly, FF14 is bosses.

[Jeeqbit]

The bottom line is, that some just limit themselves only to have a reason to complain and cry that the world is against them when in fact the game offers a lot of diversity and the only thing you need to do is to take action and find/make a group that suits your needs and schedule.

That's really how I see it honestly. At the very, very least it's worth casual players trying: Extreme, Unreal or the first and second Savage floors. They are usually pretty realistic to prog through in PF (I mean depending on the tier, but I even got through the much fearmongered P10S in PF and helped lots of people clear it so there's that).

For anyone wondering about the Chaos Raid's difficulty, I think there's no reason not to jump into a prog party as a casual player. They can't make such large-scale content too difficult. They said themselves it's like Extreme or first floor savage difficulty. Which is just like I said above - very realistic to prog through casually in PF. They said that it can be done with 12 players, which suggests the other 12 can be somewhat clueless as long as half the raid knows what they're doing at any given moment. I remember when Yoshi-P pulled it, I just saw stuff like a donut AoE... it probably won't be that bad.

That said, I do think there is a need for content like Field Operations and relic grinds to work on casually. Which is why I'm glad we're getting one. It was conspicuous by its absence in Endwalker due to how much life it brought to Shadowbringers, because this sort of content brings people together who do all levels of content and it feels great and social.

[KillaKilala]

I'm curious... How do you read the patch notes for the upcoming 7.1 and come to the conclusion that the game caters to casuals?

Us casuals, all we're getting is 3 hours of story, and 45min per week to repeat ad nauseum the same 24 man raid, at best. Raiders are getting the new Chaotic, a new Ultimate, the next Unreal and a new Extreme trial.

And I assure you, it's very possible for casuals to complete all the casual content. I know, because I've done it. From ARR to DT, it takes around 3,5 - 4 years to complete every single piece of casual content, and then you're left with FATEs and Hunts.

All I have to look forward to for the next 4 months is attempting my solo Deep Dungeon runs.

In my personal opinion, they need to tone back on all the endgame hardcore raids and give casuals more interesting and fun things to do.

I’m judging by the previous expansions. In EW we got variant dungeons, island sanctuary, relics with zero grind. Not to mention devs are too scared to make content more difficult, in the LL Yoshi-P said that the 7.1 dungeon will be easier than the expert dungeons… For real? Were these difficult? You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics. Why would I care about the aoes if they’re not going to kill me? Devs probably want to make the MSQ as accessible as possible, but maybe it’s better not to tie content to the msq or let giga casuals go straight to the explorer mode.

[Erzaa]

I’m judging by the previous expansions. In EW we got variant dungeons, island sanctuary, relics with zero grind.

Endwalker also came with two Ultimates, the usual amount of Unreals, Extremes and Savages and Criterion dungeons, which weren't harder dungeons, they were Extreme - Savage level difficulty. The hardcore crowd was perfectly catered to in Endwalker as well. This time around, raiders are getting a completely new type of hardcore raid as well as all the previous raids. If the raid succeeds or fails like Criterion, that remains to be seen.

Not to mention devs are too scared to make content more difficult, in the LL Yoshi-P said that the 7.1 dungeon will be easier than the expert dungeons… For real? Were these difficult? You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics.

If anything, the devs can't scale content properly. They make casual content way too easy, they make raiding content way too hard. I've neither the patience, nor the energy, and time, to waste, banging my head against a wall, progging a fight. I leave that to the younger, more energetic, more skilled and experienced players. It's not for me. That also doesn't mean I want everything to be a joke. But, no, I don't feel like the MSQ content should be any harder than it is. It's supposed to be for everyone.

Having said that, you answered your own question

Devs probably want to make the MSQ as accessible as possible, but maybe it’s better not to tie content to the msq or let giga casuals go straight to the explorer mode.

You're not going to convince a corporation that's interested in profit, to stop catering to the very casual playerbase who want to breeze by the story without stress. That would lose them money. The MSQ is designed to be played by the lowest common denominator.

And the "giga casuals" are paying the same subscription you are. And all they get is the MSQ, and little bits of content like beast tribes or whatever. Most of them are probably happy with it. You're not going to find them joining your PF Savage prog. You're still going to get your hard and challenging content later. There's absolutely no reason to deride them for enjoying their entertainment differently to how you enjoy yours.

A neat solution could be a difficulty setting, you could choose a Normal or Hard version of the dungeon. But that would be hard to implement, as difficulty levels would segregate the playerbase, and then, how would the be handled in the DF? And, as I said before, they don't seem to have a middle ground. Everything is too easy or too hard and team oriented. They're terrible at just designing a Normal difficulty mode. I'm sure it's partly to how they design their content too. Once you've repeated the same fight with zero variations for the upteenth time, it's bound to get boring.

You can fail multiple mechanics and still survive so what I do is I just ignore these mechanics. Why would I care about the aoes if they’re not going to kill me?

Sure, play like you want to play. But, you need to understand that you're not the only player in the game, other players may have disabilities, may have difficulties reading queues, maybe they're zoned out that day and tired... any number of things. And those players may find it harder than you do.

[Volgia]

Endwalker also came with two Ultimates, the usual amount of Unreals, Extremes and Savages and Criterion dungeons, which weren't harder dungeons, they were Extreme - Savage level difficulty. The hardcore crowd was perfectly catered to in Endwalker as well. This time around, raiders are getting a completely new type of hardcore raid as well as all the previous raids. If the raid succeeds or fails like Criterion, that remains to be seen.

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.

[Erzaa]

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.

I did the ARR and HW EX's synced, they were nice. But from SB onward, they seemed to change, the mechanics just became more and more punishing. I don't know, maybe the ARR and HW ones were more punishing on release, and because I came in late and had the benefit of the Allagan tomestones gear, they were easier?

It took around 1 - 2 hours to complete each of them.

I jumped back in recently with the Zoraal Ja EX with some friends, we put up a PF for an extra two people, and it just wasn't any fun. I wasn't coordinated enough for that silly stack moving mechanic. We tried for an hour, and even though the PF said blind and practice, we still had people jumping in and out constantly, after the second or third wipe.

Edit: I also really enjoyed doing the blue mage challenges for the titles and the rewards (the umbrella)

That kind of content seems to be the perfect difficulty for me.

It's not fun to me. All respect to those of you who enjoy it, play it to your heart's content, but I much prefer the slow solo deep dungeons challenge. I don't have to wait for other people, I don't have to watch them get frustrated and leave, I don't have to feel bad about my mistakes and I can just go again and learn at my own pace.

[Valence]

I did the ARR and HW EX's synced, they were nice. But from SB onward, they seemed to change, the mechanics just became more and more punishing. I don't know, maybe the ARR and HW ones were more punishing on release, and because I came in late and had the benefit of the Allagan tomestones gear, they were easier?

It took around 1 - 2 hours to complete each of them.

I jumped back in recently with the Zoraal Ja EX with some friends, we put up a PF for an extra two people, and it just wasn't any fun. I wasn't coordinated enough for that silly stack moving mechanic. We tried for an hour, and even though the PF said blind and practice, we still had people jumping in and out constantly, after the second or third wipe.

There is definitely overgear and powercreep potency playing a big part, but ARR/HW is also a very different type of battle system and game where challenges and concerns focused on different things. The encounter mechanics and design is just different and your post is just a good example of it.

I'm curious... How do you read the patch notes for the upcoming 7.1 and come to the conclusion that the game caters to casuals?

Us casuals, all we're getting is 3 hours of story, and 45min per week to repeat ad nauseum the same 24 man raid, at best. Raiders are getting the new Chaotic, a new Ultimate, the next Unreal and a new Extreme trial.

And I assure you, it's very possible for casuals to complete all the casual content. I know, because I've done it. From ARR to DT, it takes around 3,5 - 4 years to complete every single piece of casual content, and then you're left with FATEs and Hunts.

All I have to look forward to for the next 4 months is attempting my solo Deep Dungeon runs.

In my personal opinion, they need to tone back on all the endgame hardcore raids and give casuals more interesting and fun things to do.

I'd assume that in SE's eyes, they do shove into casual everything that's not challenging content, which goes from crafting to treasure maps, fates, sightseeing, and everything that comes with the vanilla expansion... which kinda blows.

[Voidmage]

So Ultimates aside, is there a reason you wouldn't like to try Unreals or Extremes? I agree that there should be more variety of content, and I'm hoping a new Bozja like zone could intersect the Hardcore and Casual group of players into something fun, but since you have 4 months of "nothing to do", wouldn't it be nice to try them?

Like I swear if you go into a PF on a fresh or blind party no one will get angry at you for messing up.

I did up to Savage before and nowadays only do Ex fights.

I only speak for me but maybe others also see it like that.
The problem I got with Savage (and Ex if it wasn’t just faster and more forgiving) is that there isn’t really much “skill” involved. It’s just know where to stand and keep the gcd rolling.
No positioning the boss as the tank mostly, no usage of any other things like “sleep” for mobs and so on. Just know the mechanics to a T.
I honestly stopped having fun in Savage.

Add to that every strategy tilting towards melee players even in EW (very annoying on BLM sometimes) and unnecessary body checks even in Ex and it will be annoying.

What I’m trying to say is that I think it’s not just the difficulty letting casuals hesitate with Ex but also the design itself.
Not everyone wants to look up a guide. Many casuals actually like to do dungeons blind for example.
The modern raiding scene though is almost completely “follow guide to a T”. Blind prog is usually only found at the very beginning.
Many PF groups also often have extremely high ilvl requirements just so they don’t have to waste any time.