The Buttons & You

[Absurdity]

Eh, you're conflating though. Reduced buttons doesn't HAVE to equal unengaging. You painted feedback pure red, maybe some asked for simple but usually I see something with far more nuance. Your view purges nuance. Like for me I think akin to GW2 which tends to have few buttons but isn't SMN levels of simple.

There is a significant difference between the combat systems that GW2 employs compared to XIV.

Significantly faster GCD, lower cooldowns across the board, more reactionary gameplay, just like ESO (which has a very similar system) it is a lot more spammy and reliant on the player's motor skills.

Between dodging, weapon swapping and executing an ability pretty much every second, it is a very different experience in practice than cycling through the exact same 5 buttons every 2.5 seconds and occasionally WASDing out of the danger circle.

[Shougun]

There is a significant difference between the combat systems that GW2 employs compared to XIV.

Significantly faster GCD, lower cooldowns across the board, more reactionary gameplay, just like ESO (which has a very similar system) it is a lot more spammy and reliant on the player's motor skills.

Between dodging, weapon swapping and executing an ability pretty much every second, it is a very different experience in practice than cycling through the exact same 5 buttons every 2.5 seconds and occasionally WASDing out of the danger circle.

I know it's different. I am a fan of faster skills. I am also a fan of keeping it to two full rows of buttons (sans non core stuff, that can spill).

I have not asked for it to be nor want it to be 11121222222211111111. But I am fan of less buttons. I am aware one way to do less buttons is to make 11111113222211, that does not mean it is what I asked. Hence my first response to you. That's devs problem. If you ask for it to be cooler and then put an AC exhausting into the room, making it hotter, that's the devs fault.

"But that's like a lot of stuff" never have I said it's not. If you want to smash down desires into bites then expect to lose detail, as I said you (royal you) smashed nuance.

Also just to add, you make it sound like we can't get there or it's massively far away. We do have jobs that have in the past, and somewhat now, been loaded with oGCDs. This quickly approaches a very fast cadence. Its not like we haven't seen faster than 2.5 (because not all jobs, are hard casting only).

[Valence]

I think the point Amiable is making is flying way over your head. He is saying the encounter design is the root problem that needs to be solved first. If you added the PvP kit (OR a pvp type kit with a lot less buttons than normal PvE kit), all you would get in the current design is just spamming less buttons. A rotation would form to maximize damage because PvE is one step above a striking dummy [in Amiable's terms].

Solved first or later, same thing. It's the chicken or the egg. The sooner we understand that job toolkits, battle encounters, and the general battle system are all tied together into a single entity that doesn't and cannot function by even just lacking one, the better we can move onto more productive discussions than whether this is tied to encounter design only or not.

And you're still bringing up his strawman about adding the pvp kit or something resembling into the current encounter model, which is never something I have advocated for. I actually replied to the initial thread from Acno that suggested the same thing as you both do. It makes literally zero sense to me to even entertain the idea, because that's just a strawman fallacy. Whether it's pvp or pve, both systems work around the same trinity concept and trying to wedge me into an imaginary position saying "just bring pvp jobs over!" facing the opposite position of "just remake encounters!" is just nonsensical.

[Valence]

I like button consolidation if it's made intelligently and allows for more variety and interesting things to be added as a result. But recently taking a look at VPR for example, do you know how many people actually remember the names of each of the abilities of the main combo? And what they are? The only thing they remember is the color of the last step for the positional, since for the rest, they're interchangeable and the glowy autopilot will tell you which buff to refresh next. That's funny on its own because while it's more interesting than a bland basic 1-2-3 combo, what it actually gained is a little complexity in the succession of the button one presses, but not the choices that you make about which to press or why. If anything, it is completely about memory and executing a script as close as possible to a T.

[Mikey_R]

... they're interchangeable and the glowy autopilot will tell you which buff to refresh next.

Just to be that person, but none of the Viper glowy buttons tell you which buff to refresh. So, let's go through them.

The first step glows dependant on your buff, Honed Revers or Steel Reavers, gained from the opposite first step.

The second step glows dependant on which 'Venom' buff you have. These buffs are the ones that cycle you through the last steps of your combo. The one that lights up in the second part of the combo is the branch that takes you to the final step (whether it is flank or rear) that is buffed.

The last step lights up based on which venom buff you have.

From the Vicewinder combo, both Hunter's Coil and Swiftskin's Coil light up, when you use one, the other stays lit.

None of them are based on which buff needs refreshing. You can even test this yourself if you want. From nothing, start with the Vicewinder combo and get both buffs up, use either Steel Fangs or Reaving Fangs and you will find both Hunter's Sting and Swiftskin's Sting both lit up, despite one buff having a lower timer. You can even set it up so that you are buffed up, use Vicewinder, then go to the second step, the buff with the higher timer is the one that is highlighted.

So, thank you for the irony that you claim people don't remember Viper action names, then not understand Viper's gauge and what it is actually telling you. In the heat of battle, is it going to make a difference? No, but it's fun to point out.

Also, you implied you wanted PvP kits on PvE here. Now, granted, you never said directly import them, however, what are you actually expecting to come from this? PvE is not the fast paced action that PvP is. You can take a PvP kit, look at it, go, that wouldn't work well for PvE, take it out, then you get left with a very bare bones PvE kit, that you flesh out and what do you have? What we have now. You can get rid of them 2 minute meta, have all jobs be selfish DPS jobs and with that, more flexibility, but it would still be a PvE job.

And, to cap this off, every job is about memory and executing a script, making PvE kits based on a PvP kit is not going to change that.

[Valence]

Just to be that person, but none of the Viper glowy buttons tell you which buff to refresh. So, let's go through them.

The first step glows dependant on your buff, Honed Revers or Steel Reavers, gained from the opposite first step.

The second step glows dependant on which 'Venom' buff you have. These buffs are the ones that cycle you through the last steps of your combo. The one that lights up in the second part of the combo is the branch that takes you to the final step (whether it is flank or rear) that is buffed.

The last step lights up based on which venom buff you have.

From the Vicewinder combo, both Hunter's Coil and Swiftskin's Coil light up, when you use one, the other stays lit.

None of them are based on which buff needs refreshing. You can even test this yourself if you want. From nothing, start with the Vicewinder combo and get both buffs up, use either Steel Fangs or Reaving Fangs and you will find both Hunter's Sting and Swiftskin's Sting both lit up, despite one buff having a lower timer. You can even set it up so that you are buffed up, use Vicewinder, then go to the second step, the buff with the higher timer is the one that is highlighted.

So, thank you for the irony that you claim people don't remember Viper action names, then not understand Viper's gauge and what it is actually telling you. In the heat of battle, is it going to make a difference? No, but it's fun to point out.

I know how VPR works, thank you for the, as usual, very useful explanation Mr Akshtually. Way to miss the point, as you usually are keen to do and rarely disappoint with. So to borrow your words, let's explain to you what the post was actually about: if you follow the autopilot diligently, it will ensure that everything gets refreshed and your positionals met, unless you drop the combo altogether.

No really, thank you for the irony in showing every time that you are literally unable to properly get the point of anything you read whatsoever, and either out of malice, or just incapacity. See below once more...

Also, you implied you wanted PvP kits on PvE here. Now, granted, you never said directly import them, however, what are you actually expecting to come from this? PvE is not the fast paced action that PvP is. You can take a PvP kit, look at it, go, that wouldn't work well for PvE, take it out, then you get left with a very bare bones PvE kit, that you flesh out and what do you have? What we have now. You can get rid of them 2 minute meta, have all jobs be selfish DPS jobs and with that, more flexibility, but it would still be a PvE job.

And, to cap this off, every job is about memory and executing a script, making PvE kits based on a PvP kit is not going to change that.

You said it yourself, I never said directly import them. You're the only one with expectations and delusions. You're also showing your complete and absolute ignorance on pvp when you drop bombs like "pvp is fast paced action" lol