The Buttons & You

[CidHeiral]

There have already been a number of horrible job design decisions made in the name of reducing nonexistent button bloat. Jobs should not continue to be dumbed down to cater to a minority of players who don't understand how to effectively bind their abilities.

Years ago WoW learned this same lesson the hard way when the devs pruned every class to mindless three button rotations in response to complaints about hotbar space, and the people complaining then were making many of the same arguments that the people complaining now are. It was a very miserable and unfun era and it took years for the devs to realize their mistake and reverse course. It would be unfortunate to see FFXIV repeat that mistake more than it has already.

[Shougun]

There have already been a number of horrible job design decisions made in the name of reducing nonexistent button bloat. Jobs should not continue to be dumbed down to cater to a minority of players who don't understand how to effectively bind their abilities.

Years ago WoW learned this same lesson the hard way when the devs pruned every class to mindless three button rotations in response to complaints about hotbar space, and the people complaining then were making many of the same arguments that the people complaining now are. It was a very miserable and unfun era and it took years for the devs to realize their mistake and reverse course. It would be unfortunate to see FFXIV repeat that mistake more than it has already.

Although, that example seems to me its not the player's issue but the dev. Like if you ask for AC, and your employer installs one of those standalone AC units with the exhaust of the unit pumping into the same space as the cold air and then saying "employee's fault it's hotter" lol.

To add more context, imo a goal of around 16 buttons is good, with some jobs being more, .. honestly many don't need to be less, and any roleplay 'for fun' abilities not counting towards this.

[Moqi]

There have already been a number of horrible job design decisions made in the name of reducing nonexistent button bloat. Jobs should not continue to be dumbed down to cater to a minority of players who don't understand how to effectively bind their abilities.

Years ago WoW learned this same lesson the hard way when the devs pruned every class to mindless three button rotations in response to complaints about hotbar space, and the people complaining then were making many of the same arguments that the people complaining now are. It was a very miserable and unfun era and it took years for the devs to realize their mistake and reverse course. It would be unfortunate to see FFXIV repeat that mistake more than it has already.

I feel like there are two separate issues. I like having 32 buttons to press in a job and I like pressing all of them, but most of our abilities have no reason to exist as separate buttons. That's pretty much the definition of bloat.

We are 10 years in, we should get past the fluff and get some cool stuff instead of stretching a combo over 4-5 buttons.

[Kuroka]

Years ago WoW learned this same lesson the hard way when the devs pruned every class to mindless three button rotations in response to complaints about hotbar space, and the people complaining then were making many of the same arguments that the people complaining now are.

But i dont want actually less buttons, I want less pointless ones, more fun stuff or just instead of having the same skills basically 2-3 times. And stuff that sits on CD for 2-3 min is just pointless waste of space, make it something with 2 bottons that triggers after its CD or something like that...

[Canadane]

1-2-3 may not be much more engaging than 1-1-1, but it still more engaging all the same.

[TaleraRistain]

I'm in the camp of keeping the combo separate but not for a dumb reason like "skill expression", there's not much skill expressed by pressing 1, then 2, then 3.

No, why I want them kept separate is that there exists times when you want to intentionally reset your combo, like if you want to do a 1-2 and skip the 3 on GNB to keep refreshing the shield and keep yourself alive while the healer is hardcasting a raise. Or situations like how you want to reset your combo and take a minor damage loss for better alignment later on in the fight, that's an element ot skill expression.

All that said, I wouldn't be opposed to the option for people to condense the combo into one button for those who want it. As long as it's optional and not forced on everyone.

Brutal Shell spam ftw. Saved my behind many a time at lower levels when the healer dies.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Ok. I'm confused now. Where did I say I wanted to import the pvp kits into pve? What kind of strawman is this?

I think the point Amiable is making is flying way over your head. He is saying the encounter design is the root problem that needs to be solved first. If you added the PvP kit (OR a pvp type kit with a lot less buttons than normal PvE kit), all you would get in the current design is just spamming less buttons. A rotation would form to maximize damage because PvE is one step above a striking dummy [in Amiable's terms].

[Derio]

Biggest example is DRK and PLD for the tanks.

DRK where Dark Mind is useless in most fights and dungeons pulls because its only magical and how Abyssal drain is only used in dungeons and open world fates where there are 3 or more enemies. PLD where cover is very niche. Clemency is emergency heals only. Then you have shield bash which is only during leveling if that and deep dungeon.

Lets not forget the interject role action button that literally saw little to no usage from any boss or mob outside of criterion in EW.

Most of the button issues in this game is due to Job design which we have to wait until 8.0 to get addressed.

[CidHeiral]

Although, that example seems to me its not the player's issue but the dev. Like if you ask for AC, and your employer installs one of those standalone AC units with the exhaust of the unit pumping into the same space as the cold air and then saying "employee's fault it's hotter" lol.

People asked for less buttons and they got less buttons. There wasn't a bloat problem to begin with so naturally a lot of fun stuff got pruned since the button reduction had to come from somewhere.

I agree with you that it is ultimately the developer's responsibility to not implement bad feedback, but they need to hear from all sides to decide what is good and bad. That is why I'm leaving feedback as well.

I feel like there are two separate issues. I like having 32 buttons to press in a job and I like pressing all of them, but most of our abilities have no reason to exist as separate buttons. That's pretty much the definition of bloat.

If two buttons are redundant then one should be redesigned into something more interesting. That's not what most button bloat complainers are asking for though, they're asking for a massive reduction of abilities across the board. The post right above yours for example wants to cut every job's abilities by half. That can't be done by just consolidating a few things into consecutive actions, and to be frank they've done that with a lot of abilities this expansion and it's a very boring design.

But i dont want actually less buttons, I want less pointless ones, more fun stuff or just instead of having the same skills basically 2-3 times.

I agree, but keep in mind the jobs used to be more like what you're asking for but have been made more boring and homogenized every expansion in response to player complaints like the ones in this thread. Several jobs got further simplified in Dawntrail to "reduce the number of actions."

[Shougun]

People asked for less buttons and they got less buttons. There wasn't a bloat problem to begin with so naturally a lot of fun stuff got pruned since the button reduction had to come from somewhere.

I agree with you that it is ultimately the developer's responsibility to not implement bad feedback, but they need to hear from all sides to decide what is good and bad. That is why I'm leaving feedback as well.



If two buttons are redundant then one should be redesigned into something more interesting. That's not what most button bloat complainers are asking for though, they're asking for a massive reduction of abilities across the board. The post right above yours for example wants to cut every job's abilities by half. That can't be done by just consolidating a few things into consecutive actions, and to be frank they've done that with a lot of abilities this expansion and it's a very boring design.



I agree, but keep in mind the jobs used to be more like what you're asking for but have been made more boring and homogenized every expansion in response to player complaints like the ones in this thread. Several jobs got further simplified in Dawntrail to "reduce the number of actions."

Eh, you're conflating though. Reduced buttons doesn't HAVE to equal unengaging. You painted feedback pure red, maybe some asked for simple but usually I see something with far more nuance. Your view purges nuance. Like for me I think akin to GW2 which tends to have few buttons but isn't SMN levels of simple.