A reminder to everyone about generational differences

[Jojoya]

...and how important it is to keep them in mind as we tackle content together. This is just as much directed at the developers as it is at fellow players.

Gaming in general has its most diverse audience ever now. Where in the past, video games were considered to be something only children play we now have grandparents playing alongside their grandchildren because grandparents had also grown up with video games (even if was good old Pong, Centipede, Asteroids, etc.). The appeal is no longer limited to a small age demographic and has become mainstream across all ages.

But the childhood experiences and education for those of us who are in the Boomer, GenX and early part of the Millenial generations is very different from what later Millenials, GenZ and GenA are experiencing. We think differently. We examine things from different perspectives. We have different expectations.

I'm not interested in those who want to argue that one generation or the other is dumb, wrong, messed up or whatever. I'm just pointing out that the differences exist.

I'm bringing this up because of something I witnessed last week. I've been playing WoW again and reconnected with my old healing partner from Mists of Pandaria (hard to believe that was more than 10 years ago). He got me watching his stream of his current guild's mythic raid progression.

They're working on the 6th boss that requires some precise positioning to avoid wipes due to AoEs going off in the wrong places. The raid leader was reminding them that targeted players need to be moving clockwise to so everyone would be in the right position. Unfortunately, some of them weren't on almost every attempt.

Finally, one of raid members spoke up to say that maybe Boomers know what clockwise is but Zoomers don't have a clue and that maybe the raid lead should explain it differently. The raid lead said that it means move to your right. That then started the argument about whether clockwise is right or left. (In the meanwhile, I put together a picture of an old-fashioned clock with arrows marked clockwise and counterclockwise and sent it to my friend to share so they would have something visual to work with.)

I later shared the incident in my FC Discord and one of our GenZ members said that it's very true. He didn't know what clockwise was either until someone explained it to him for a FFXIV boss fight.

The problem in this situation is that no one was wrong and that's because the different generations approach things differently based on their own experiences.

Younger people mostly have experience with digital timekeeping. They may have never seen an old fashioned clock or understood what it was if no one had told them. Older people are going to know almost without thinking because it was a basic part of life growing up.

Is moving clockwise moving to your left or right? It depends based on where you see yourself standing on the "clock" and whether you're taking directional facing into account. Take a picture of an old fashioned clock. Draw a line straight down the middle through 12 and 6. If you're standing at 12 and told to move clockwise, what side of the image would you end up on? The right side. If you're standing at 6, you'd end up on the left side.

There's also the old expression "righty tighty, lefty loosey". While it had been used to help train new assembly workers in the WWII war factories when working with bolts/screws, those workers also taught it to their children (the Boomer generation) to know the difference between clockwise (righty tighty) and counterclockwise (lefty loosey) where the focus was on the motion at the top of the circle and not the bottom.

So as players, when conflict comes up please try to remember that it might be based in part on generational differences and having different life experience, not that one is wrong and the other is right. Discuss things to try to learn the other's perspective then find common ground to allow understanding and consensus.

For the developers, please remember this in game design. What makes a good experience for one generation may be a poor experience for others. Most games it wouldn't be a big deal. They're single player and can more easily cater to a narrower demographic focus. For MMOs, it makes a big difference because the generations are coming together to play. Design needs to tread a common ground that all can relate to.

[NegativeS]

They're working on the 6th boss that requires some precise positioning to avoid wipes due to AoEs going off in the wrong places. The raid leader was reminding them that targeted players need to be moving clockwise to so everyone would be in the right position. Unfortunately, some of them weren't on almost every attempt.

Finally, one of raid members spoke up to say that maybe Boomers know what clockwise is but Zoomers don't have a clue and that maybe the raid lead should explain it differently. The raid lead said that it means move to your right. That then started the argument about whether clockwise is right or left. (In the meanwhile, I put together a picture of an old-fashioned clock with arrows marked clockwise and counterclockwise and sent it to my friend to share so they would have something visual to work with.)

I'm gonna be entirely honest with you, if any person high school-aged or older doesn't know what CW/CCW is, they are completely cooked and shouldn't be taken seriously. I've led a few WoW raid teams, and if a DPS honestly told me they didn't know what I meant by 'clockwise', I'd kick them from the group so fast I'd probably break my mouse.

This isn't a generational matter of analog clocks going out of style, this is some of the most basic geometric and mechanical knowledge known to mankind.

For the developers, please remember this in game design. What makes a good experience for one generation may be a poor experience for others. Most games it wouldn't be a big deal. They're single player and can more easily cater to a narrower demographic focus. For MMOs, it makes a big difference because the generations are coming together to play. Design needs to tread a common ground that all can relate to.

Developing content for the lowest common denominator of player is how you kill your MMO. WoW almost fell into this trap a few times, FFXIV is currently in the process of falling into it.

[Jojoya]

This isn't a generational matter of analog clocks going out of style, this is some of the most basic geometric and mechanical knowledge known to mankind.



Developing content for the lowest common denominator of player is how you kill your MMO. WoW almost fell into this trap a few times, FFXIV is currently in the process of falling into it.

But are schools still teaching that geometric and mechanical knowledge or are they just teaching their students to pass standardized tests to guarantee they continue to get federal funding?

Search google for comments from long time college and university instructors about the state of incoming students. I came across one article focused on how many college students struggle to read and analyze the contents of a book. They're too used to getting quick bites of information and now they're getting a lot of that information from AI, which still has a lot of inaccuracies.

As for WoW failing because of the lowest common denominator, I disagree. Wrath worked because it had something for everyone. Cata bombed at start because it took raiding and Heroic dungeons away from the common player and didn't give them anything to replace that loss of content. The game also failed because because they had developers that decided there was only one right way to do things and a CEO that was pressuring them to add monetization into the design process. Don't forget about Wildstar, which failed because there was nothing for the common denominator outside of its housing system (which was very popular but not enough to save it).

[Birdbrain]

Finally, one of raid members spoke up to say that maybe Boomers know what clockwise is but Zoomers don't have a clue and that maybe the raid lead should explain it differently.

I generally don't mind helping people, even if the answer feels obvious. But when people start unironically using terms like 'boomer' and 'zoomer' like this... ya lost me =P

[NegativeS]

Search google for comments from long time college and university instructors about the state of incoming students. I came across one article focused on how many college students struggle to read and analyze the contents of a book. They're too used to getting quick bites of information and now they're getting a lot of that information from AI, which still has a lot of inaccuracies.

Yes, this is a problem. A huge, society-threatening problem. Not something that should be catered to by watering down their environment.

As for WoW failing because of the lowest common denominator, I disagree. Wrath worked because it had something for everyone. Cata bombed at start because it took raiding and Heroic dungeons away from the common player and didn't give them anything to replace that loss of content. The game also failed because because they had developers that decided there was only one right way to do things and a CEO that was pressuring them to add monetization into the design process. Don't forget about Wildstar, which failed because there was nothing for the common denominator outside of its housing system (which was very popular but not enough to save it).

Welcome to game development, we're happy to have you here.

Rule 1: Do not attempt to design your game for every audience. Either you will fail and your game will die, or you will succeed and your game will become tasteless slop... and then your game will die.

Wildstar died because it was eclipsed by WoW, not because it was a bad game. I actually quite enjoyed it during the short time it was alive.

[DiaDeem]

What?

If you don't know what a term means while playing a team/party game, just ask for an explanation and move on.

You're overthinking it.

[kajv95]

I sincerely cannot believe what I just read.

I don't want to come across as rude, really, but if your kids don't know what clockwise/counterclockwise means, it might be time to take them off of WoW/FFXIV and spend some time teaching them, y'know, words and concepts?
In my current country of residence and my motherland, analog clocks are still everywhere. Please go outside, and look up from your phone for a change while you do.

Don't enable this kind of nonsense.

And while I'm at it, no, we cannot have the developers refuse to do mechanics because some kids out there "didn't grow up with analog clocks and it'd be hard to explain clockwise to them as a result".
Design absolutely does not "need to tread a common ground all can relate to" - I'd argue the exact opposite. If it's a multiplayer game, it's genuinely more fun if it's something not everyone can immediately pick up. That's why Construct 7 is always a joy to witness - because not everyone knows their prime numbers, or is even perceptive enough to figure out the mechanic works on health.

By attempting to cater to something "everyone can understand", you limit your creative freedom and may end up getting funneled into just making the same thing over and over again with nary a difference because it's the only thing you can make at this point.

but then again, that's kind of what FFXIV is already doing and there's plenty of people who seem to prefer it that way, so...

Replying to the comment below:

But are schools still teaching that geometric and mechanical knowledge or are they just teaching their students to pass standardized tests to guarantee they continue to get federal funding?

Search google for comments from long time college and university instructors about the state of incoming students. I came across one article focused on how many college students struggle to read and analyze the contents of a book. They're too used to getting quick bites of information and now they're getting a lot of that information from AI, which still has a lot of inaccuracies.

I just left the country, but was an elementary school teacher for a year and a half. My best friend is a high school history teacher. He'd get on my ass, jokingly, about the students coming in that struggle to do... basically anything.
I can tell you, in my country, it's not the schools or the teachers failing. It tends to be complete lack of involvement of the parents, and the screens kids find themselves on constantly. I know for a fact we still teach analog clocks in school here. But they still struggle with that now. Same with reading. We set apart several hours a week for reading and reading comprehension, and it's still a problem.

Some of the damage is the fact that we were forced to make a lot of bad decisions during Covid and had to pass kids who really weren't on level, causing damage for several years worth that we're only just now properly recovering from, but this has been going on for years and it's just a steady decline in their willingness to learn and retain basic skills. I won't be able to go back to teaching for a while since I don't speak the language where I am now, but I don't think I want to go back anyway. It was hell.

And besides that, if the schools aren't teaching these kids basic things, then we might as well try to teach them through games, no? They'll probably remember what clockwise is better if it's tied to ilvl.

[Fawkes]

Apparently digital clocks were invented in 1883.

This has nothing to do with what kids today grew up with.

[Jeeqbit]

Finally, one of raid members spoke up to say that maybe Boomers know what clockwise is but Zoomers don't have a clue and that maybe the raid lead should explain it differently.

Come to think of it, I've been in MINE PUGs in recent years with sprouts who were new to FFXIV raiding and we had to spend most of the time explaining what a "clock position" is. We didn't end up doing much actual raiding because we had to explain how us standing around a marker reflected a clock position and how this was relevant for mechanics. They seemed to be really struggling to understand it.

argument about whether clockwise is right or left.

To be honest, I've struggled with this sometimes, despite growing up with traditional clocks and being taught about them at school.

There have always been digital clocks in my life (TV, digital watches, little digital clocks), but they were mixed in with traditional ones (and I still see them in some places such as restaurants, large ones on buildings and doctors offices). However, I still struggled with clockwise and counter-clockwise sometimes. It makes me have to think a little bit. And if there's a lot going on or not a lot of time, that "think a little bit" can be too long, especially if I'm disoriented.

Being disoriented can mean that clockwise is left instead of right, which is why a common strategy in FFXIV is to put a marker up north that is emphasized a bit more than the others to say "that is north and also where the tank will be", depending on the fight of course.

Speaking of that, I used to struggle with North, East, South and West too. North and South were quite easy, but I'd more often mix up East and West. So that could easily be another thing that takes getting used to.

Another thing that gets people sometimes is the difference between cardinal and intercardinal. So it's usually a good idea to explain what that actually means to beginners as well. Since it's especially useful for protean-like mechanics.

So as players, when conflict comes up please try to remember that it might be based in part on generational differences and having different life experience

I've considered different life experience being a factor the whole time, personally, because when you teach people about raids it's clear that some people "get it" faster than others, perhaps due to having done it in other games. That extends to teaching people anything at all as well. Sometimes their life experience is such that you have to explain the most basic things. I've often put it down to the fact that a sprout could be just 18 years old and have limited life experience.

If you don't know what a term means while playing a team/party game, just ask for an explanation

Really this. If they don't know it, they will learn it. English has a lot of words and phrases that actually refer to things as they were hundreds of years ago and we now use them to refer to our modern version of it, but we've always just dealt with this fact.

For example, we go to watch a "film"... it ain't on a film roll anymore. The "press" probably doesn't print anymore because it's not profitable. A "press release" is probably mostly going out across digital platforms. You "email" someone but it may as well just be "sending them a message" since it's about as fast and responsive as simply using discord. You look at the clock, but it's just a digital number now and better known as the "time".

And over time, you come to understand or figure out what these words used to mean, just from living your life. You may not have been around for the days when films actually had film stripes that were physically cut, but it's something you'll figure out over time just like traditional clocks.

I think Jojoya's point is mostly to just consider that others may not know what you consider basic and that you may have to explain it sometimes.

[Mimilu]

I mean, this is kind of more of an issue of players of different generations explaining mechanics to each other then the devs making mechanics. They could of just explained it as everyone moving to their left in a circle while facing the boss. (✪u✪)