Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[Shougun]

Thank you for your honest response, and I did check out your other thread!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the vibe that the issue is more with content not letting any Job-specific action shine, but wouldn't that be a content issue more than a Job issue?

- Old Castrum Meridianum had the ceruleum pipes we had to blow up, and NIN used to be able to go stealth and blow both up without aggroing anything near the pipes, but barely anyone could do that because everyone would just mindlessly charge ahead and kill everything either way.

- In Haukke Manor, NIN can ignore the entire basement segment with Hide and get the key to enter Boss 2 without fighting a single enemy, but nobody does it.

- Brayflox Loongstop you can sleep the second boss, or the mini-boss that spawns with him, but nobody does it.

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

- DRK's TBN can absorb The Queen's Cleansing Slash in DR, entirely negating the Doom that it'd apply otherwise. SCH/SGE shields will also do the trick.

But that's the issue though. These are the only examples I could think of, all of them can be entirely ignored, and one of them doesn't even exist anymore. Looking it at it like this, the issue feels more with the content being made so all you really have to do is Tank and Spank, rather than having stuff like... "Oh, electricity short circuits this mechanic, so bring a NIN or a BLM" or something like that. Am I somewhat on the right track here?

I think that you came up with a limited list, which I appreciate you attempted to do, is an example of the whole problem though. People are going cross eyed and saying it all feels similar. I wouldn't agree that it is LITERALLY the same, but I definitely am on team "I feel cross eyed". I guess another word is like "growing apathy".


There is also the consequence of actual, number and feature based, gameplay differences being harder to balance (though WoW is not doing terrible right now, with context that each job is pretty different feeling, outside of the bugs LOL). To me if someone was like come up with ONE thing that would make a difference and I'd go.. "I can't" we need a lot of things, and many might feel really small, but as a collection it would be my hope that when you switch jobs, or do some different content, your mind almost gets hijacked. Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat. A bit bombastic of a statement lol, but that's the boardroom pitch . That said, even with the potential danger.. at this point I'm leaning into the fire and being like.. "maybe I do want to be burned a little.. just to feel alive!" haha.

Like off hand, right away- there are no role actions anymore. I've eaten them and you don't get them back. Each job, where REQUIRED, will get something unique to them that operates differently, but you four tanks don't all share rampart. That's tasteless (in sense of texture / food). I'm not serving flavorless octopus over here dangit! lol. At this point I'd like to add it's easier to think of criticism, and even ideas, than actually do- so I don't want to give the impression of "its easy".. just that if you say what would you like and I will be like "I've 1,000 minor ideas that you might not notice immediately, but as a unit you would, and 100 major ideas that will disrupt your flow intentionally so that you have no choice but to see them differently (hopefully in a fun way)".

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time it does so (starting at the cast), you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

All healers are not sharing esuna! Why? Because thematically that's boring and every little thing that is more similar than not messes with the idea I am calling texture. I apologize for people who are not following with it, because I am making words to describe my feeling.. So.. my current definition in this usage is probably along the lines of 'mechanics and concepts that apply mental traction to the situation and create unique memories associated to specific concepts'. FFXIV still fun, and insanely pretty (when I was casting spells in WoW I was like "wow.. that fire looks like butt" lol), but 'texture' is my feedback.

Like when you're in the zones attacked by Garleans, we should be able to fix it up as we increase our zone levels, unlocking new merchants and stuff. Just using FFXIV's own example, remember the Shroud fate where when you lost the enemy took over the outpost and when you won you got a little town and vendor? (Which thanalan had too)... Those ideas died there, I would have hoped they not only lived but improved.

I can definitely come up with more ideas, on any topic.. so I don't want to appear lazy when I am swinging this massive brush around screaming texture like a mad man lol.. but I also don't want you to be like "HOLY NO THANKS, NOT READING THAT" as I am common to make in general

[DiaDeem]

Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat.

lol I love that statement

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time, you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

I feel there's overlap here with the simplification of jobs. Why everyone has Esuna? Cause it's easy and simple to understand and everyone uses it the same. Like.. it makes sense, but I can see how it erodes Job identity.

I've been reading everyone's posts, and for the most part I think I understand where the sentiment that I didn't quite understand before comes from, but I'm also realizing a lot of it is not inherent to every Job's design and there's a lot of overlap with content design and job simplification.

Also, I'm just glad the thread hasn't devolved into degeneracy lol

The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

We were just in Amdapor (Hard) and the tank didn't know you can pull ads into the light shafts to debuff them.

This thread is making me realize how much I miss ARR/HW-era dungeon design...

I can tell you how to map 50+% of your buttons if you want to play another healer.

Well, that's the thing though. I specifically do my bars so they resemble each other across jobs, because my brain remembers button combos better than it does spell lists, and even with this, I still really dislike SGE compared to my SCH. I think it's more about enjoying the job rather than being able to just play it, which admittedly isn't very hard to do for any of the jobs.

Writing this comment has also made me think of something: I play on controller, so now I'm starting to wonder how much that influences how I feel about Job diversity.

[ZephyrMenodora]

lol I love that statement



I feel there's overlap here with the simplification of jobs. Why everyone has Esuna? Cause it's easy and simple to understand and everyone uses it the same. Like.. it makes sense, but I can see how it erodes identity.
.

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

[Shougun]

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

One thought that might smooth something out, but still rid the role actions is that they start out role but upgrade for flavor.

So right away you start out with Cleansing Tonic, some basic first aid like vibe. This changes to leeches, esuna, etc. Rampart -> Shadow Skin, Phalanx, etc. This way you can maintain, when needed, the pacing so you don't hate your job on REQUIRED skills, and also the teaching factor DiaDeem pointed out. I cap REQUIRED because not all of them are really needed to be on the bar, in that case they can be slapped back into a job as flavor (and probably still not put on the bar, BUT could be handy in niche situations which adds to their flavor).

Also, LOL.. I remember Chimera / worm and stuff having fun while people were like "ESUNA ME ESUNA ME" and me being like "nah.. we don't do that".

[ZephyrMenodora]

One thought that might smooth something out, but still rid the role actions is that they start out role but upgrade for flavor.

So right away you start out with Cleansing Tonic, some basic first aid like vibe. This changes to leeches, esuna, etc. Rampart -> Shadow Skin, Phalanx, etc. This way you can maintain, when needed, the pacing so you don't hate your job on REQUIRED skills, and also the teaching factor DiaDeem pointed out. I cap REQUIRED because not all of them are really needed to be on the bar, in that case they can be slapped back into a job as flavor (and probably still not put on the bar, BUT could be handy in niche situations which adds to their flavor).

Also, LOL.. I remember Chimera / worm and stuff having fun while people were like "ESUNA ME ESUNA ME" and me being like "nah.. we don't do that".

I like this idea, and also the prior ideas about making them a little different.

I was just reading a complaint thread about Leeches since I wanted to double check that I have not gone insane and made up getting it later than CNJ/WHM, and I saw a comment that Whm's version also had a chance to cast another Esuna for free. While I don't really want another Freecast like this, it was just another difference between the classes at the time that made the same function just a tad different.

[DiaDeem]

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

Well, if you could shield someone, that'd eat the DoT you'd Esuna with the other job.

I definitely don't think the situation is a dire as some people do (I think that much is clear) but I do hope Yoshi and his team understand that a game for everyone is a game for no one. Not everything needs to be made overly convenient.

Also (this is kinda unrelated as well) but CLL, DR and Dalriada offer a lot in ways to help the party that aren't bound by the usual design for content, and it's a reason why I enjoy that content quite a bit. Do you have Death to save the hostages in CLL? Did someone bring Banish for the ghost in DR? Can we run all DPS with one tank if someone brings Cure IV? Stuff like that.

[AmiableApkallu]

Well, that's the thing though. I specifically do my bars so they resemble each other across jobs, because my brain remembers button combos better than it does spell lists, and even with this, I still really dislike SGE compared to my SCH. I think it's more about enjoying the job rather than being able to just play it, which admittedly isn't very hard to do for any of the jobs.

I'm with you there, truth be told. I'll play SCH over SGE any day, given the choice. (For example.)

It's one thing to be functional at each of the jobs, which is something that can be facilitated by hotbar layout. It's quite another thing to feel that they're equally enjoyable.

Writing this comment has also made me think of something: I play on controller, so now I'm starting to wonder how much that influences how I feel about Job diversity.

As a keyboard (+mouse) player, I've been giving advice to a controller-playing friend. Things get "interesting" when I assume my usual 36 buttons (three 12-button hotbars), and they insist on 32 buttons (two 16-button crossbars).