Is it reasonably possible to clear savage without Synced Burst windows?

[Gurgeh]

I don't know much about high-end content. I have ZERO experience of anything beyond Unreal/Extreme. No Savage, no ultimate.

• Is it commonly possible for a party to clear Savage (I mean an entire tear) without burst windows synced among players/full-party?

By "commonly", I mean that "yes its possible, but they'd all have to be purple worthy rotations and uptime with one or at most two blues at the very worst, and their only failing would need to be synchronisation" I would NOT call 'commonly' possible. I would instead call that 'technically' but also irrelevant, as those players would be syncing anyway.

The reason I ask is that I suggest that:

1. the problem with jobs being too homogenous
2. the problems with PF prog being unsatisfactory
3. the obligation to use parsers

is that

• the fights are too tightly tuned on DPS and enrage checks
• leading to Synced Burst Windows being 'too' important
• leading to all the jobs needs to have the same burst window, and boring structure
• making non-voice/typical-PF prog a step too far challenging.

?
comments please

(that's the way it comes across to me, but I've no idea)

When it comes to Ultimate I don't think there is any point in complaining anything is too hard. Although if people find Savage too easy, I'm tempted to ask "has your 'entire' static tried playing without parsers for two or three years?"
And if you or anyone in your static has used parsers to improve your gameplay at all then your Ultimate doesn't count for much in terms of 'difficulty' for me.
It counts, for plenty of other things, but not bragging rights on 'supreme' skill. In my book 8 people clutch clearing with no exposure to parsers is worth more than a perfect parse World #1.
Yes, I know thats 98% of players and 100% of world firsts.
Parsers among what ever else they may be are always also tools of convenance, they are labour saving devices... 'they make stuff easier and quicker if not outright feasible'.
If clearing is too easy, clear it soonest or clear it fastest, without any aids. Pooring through chat logs, getting out calculators, and using duty recorder if its available.
I'm pretty confident I'm not going to be attractive to headhunters for statics. I also recognise this is so much an un-reality, its basically irrelevant.

[TomsYoungerBro]

This question can't be answered in one go. This is not simply a "yes, but need *insert color here* parses to do it" or a "nah its impossible" angle. There are many factors that are involved in the question itself:

1. Gear of the party
2. Party composition
3. Dps check of the tier itself

1 - Gear of the party

This can range from min ilvl crafted with no pentamelding, all the way to full BiS. The answer will be wildy different just on this alone


2 - Party Composition

How many selfish (no buff) jobs are in the party? How well do your jobs normally play into bursts compared to out of bursts? If you have a DRK/GNB/SAM/MCH/BLM/WHM/SAGE 7/8 comp, syncing almost has no effect for instance.


3 - DPS check of the tier itself

Your answer will be very different if we were to compare Abyssos savage to this current tier as an example. Square has not fully defined a normal "DPS check" that they do for savages.



The short answer: It depends

[Gurgeh]

This question can't be answered in one go. This is not simply a "yes, but need *insert color here* parses to do it" or a "nah its impossible" angle. There are many factors that are involved in the question itself:

1. Gear of the party
2. Party composition
3. Dps check of the tier itself

1 - Gear of the party

This can range from min ilvl crafted with no pentamelding, all the way to full BiS. The answer will be wildy different just on this alone


2 - Party Composition

How many selfish (no buff) jobs are in the party? How well do your jobs normally play into bursts compared to out of bursts? If you have a DRK/GNB/SAM/MCH/BLM/WHM/SAGE 7/8 comp, syncing almost has no effect for instance.


3 - DPS check of the tier itself

Your answer will be very different if we were to compare Abyssos savage to this current tier as an example. Square has not fully defined a normal "DPS check" that they do for savages.



The short answer: It depends

1. Needs to be reasonably possible with average item level = MinILvL +5 at the very most, maybe +10 actually. We can't all expect to clear.
I'll accept absolute day zero clear is only for the very best, but you shouldn't have to wait until you've geared up on normal raid gear, and savage gear is out of question unless you get it from the previous raid within that tear (whole party). Nor should you need to be working markets and crafitng with add-ons, or quitting your day job, staying up all night on monster drinks, or selling your miquo alt on the ERP scene, in order to purchase your gear to clear the tear before next patch.

2 Party composition.
The main concern for me here is what might be causing what some see as a homogeaonising of the jobs.
So it hast to be possible with ANY combination that is 2 tanks, 2 mele, 2 range, 1 barrier 1 regen (I'll allow some fussiness on the healer mix, healers get my ultimate respect, so why not ask them to master two jobs while we are at it) Lets say 1 of each job though with fast LB

3 This needs to work for any every fight in a tier while its before it becomes previous tier.

[TomsYoungerBro]

3 This needs to work for any every fight in a tier while its before it becomes previous tier.

Then the answer is no. Considering you have to take Abyssos Savage when it was current into account. It would not be commonly possible to clear the 8th circle savage with any comp and not be synced on bursts. The DPS check was very tight, and balance was not in a good state (currently balance is in a bad state as well) to handle it. World Prog/Hardcore groups were having to switch off of underperforming jobs to clear week 1, so expecting common PF players at minilvl +10 to do it and not syncing buffs is not happening.

[Gurgeh]

Then the answer is no. Considering you have to take Abyssos Savage when it was current into account. It would not be commonly possible to clear the 8th circle savage with any comp and not be synced on bursts. The DPS check was very tight, and balance was not in a good state (currently balance is in a bad state as well) to handle it. World Prog/Hardcore groups were having to switch off of underperforming jobs to clear week 1, so expecting common PF players at minilvl +10 to do it and not syncing buffs is not happening.

Well then I'd say for all those who complain that the jobs are too alike and boring... there is 100% of your problem right there.
QED
The DPS checks are too challenging.
To anyone who will later then complain Savage is too easy I cleared it week 1 after three sessions, it really ticks me off. Because "have you tried it without cheating, yes I'm including any and all use of parsers in that."

I'd also say if you put together a team of JUST the meta jobs for that tier, again don't complain that you cleared/farmed it super quick and your bored.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Well then I'd say for all those who complain that the jobs are too alike and boring... there is 100% of your problem right there.
QED
The DPS checks are too challenging.
To anyone who will later then complain Savage is too easy I cleared it week 1 after three sessions, it really ticks me off. Because "have you tried it without cheating, yes I'm including any and all use of parsers in that."

I'd also say if you put together a team of JUST the meta jobs for that tier, again don't complain that you cleared/farmed it super quick and your bored.

Jobs not being balanced =/= jobs aren't homogenized. It seems you are just trying to build a narrative, so you will do leaps and bounds to your conclusion.

As an example, Dark Knight and Warrior play very similarly. Dark Knight just simply has more oGCDs and the self-buff is handled slightly different (warrior's is applied on the gcd rotation, while dark knight is via a 3k MP oGCD). Despite them playing very similar, DRK well outclassed WAR in dps during the Abyssos tier. WAR was one of the several classes that were underperforming by several % dps compared to their role counterparts.

The real issue is we can't have proper balance AND the jobs are very much samey. Since Abyssos, the DPS checks for savage have been very light (instead of actually fixing the balance). So now we are in a situation where we can't have proper DPS checks for Savage, and we don't have unique jobs. Its a loss all around.

[Gurgeh]

To me jobs being different means you have to scrap the 2 minute burst window.
Make buff jobs provide an enormous bonus to the party.
The Parser devs could do a lot to help here. All DPS that is created by a support buff should belong to the buff job, not the player who's buffed. Tough (one of them has to loose out)
That buff bonus needs to be large enough to make filling their rotation with sub optimal to sync with the 1:30 rotation of the best Mele SAM for one party, or the 2:30 rotation of the best DPS SMN the next party... worth while. Or least much-of-a-muchness, averaging out, because they'll buff two jobs this time, and next time they'll buff one.

And I'll say again... all DPS thanks to buffs needs to belong in the parsers to the support job, not the job they are are buffing. Otherwise we will have the usual complaints that they are underperforming, when they are not.

Include in this that maybe MNK for example needs to spend their Buff on the SAM and not on themselves. Or spend it on two ranged instead of themselves.

Again, buffs need to belong to the supporting job, not be credited to the job they are buffing.
Just find a way for all jobs of signalling in their status indicators that they are probably starting their burst, and then leave using that to the skill off the supporting job.

Really try to make every job have a different rotation period.

I'm probably not going to be convinced otherwise, as the maths to model/prove these dynamic relationships is complicated, and I wouldn't care to look into it, so I'm going to go with my intutive analysis.

[Saraide]

I'm probably not going to be convinced otherwise, as the maths to model/prove these dynamic relationships is complicated, and I wouldn't care to look into it, so I'm going to go with my intutive analysis.

Then why post at all lmaoooooo

[LittleImp]

You are strangely fixated for someone who admittedly does not raid.

I'm not really sure why you think people's ability to optimize in this game is somehow tied to parsing. This game has very simple rotations, so it's usually much easier to just figure out how long a segment of a fight is and then optimize in a spreadsheet environment. The usefulness of tools like XIVAnalaysis/FFLogs is pretty overblown. I'd much rather look at a VOD than use either of those tools to troubleshoot.


As for the premise of the thread:

Arcadion is very under-tuned, and I believe it would be trivial to clear the entire tier with intentionally desynchronized burst windows, even near the minimum itemlevel. Even players of lesser skill would be able to pull this off, as you have to realize that unskilled players are already desynchronizing their burst anyway.

[Gurgeh]

Then why post at all lmaoooooo

Because the post was about the premise "Is it reasonably possible to clear savage without Synced Burst windows?", which I can be persuaded on not the argument/conclusion that woud then follow from that "that making jobs interesting would then mean doing away with that".
I wish I could be sure you are just trolling.