Ideas on Fixing/Improving Frontline - Balance, Map Design, UI/UX, Objectives

[IDontPetLalas]

I find it rather odd that competitive necessitates a leaderboard. I am interested in winning or losing regardless of whether or not a mode is ranked. I want to keep improving, personally.

This talk of a "gameplay loop" is just odd for me, it's PVP- it's about winning. That doesn't mean that I ignore the differences of being in an environment where I'm in a premade vs a random group. It can actually challenge me more at times, because I want to see if I can do more to help the team win.I will say that I've been in matches where we don't win , but if we make a decent attempt, I've had a good time- but we are fumbling about trying to win.

[Valence]

The problem with people is that they consider a victory a condition for improvement. Defeat is, not victory. Even in actual, high competitive ranked environments. The gameplay loop is where all the choices are made, the good, average and bad ones, that lead to the end result. This is what matters.

Second, there is competitive in that you're competing against random people, and competitive in that you're competing vs people of your actual level or higher. That's just two completely different worlds.

[Mistress_Irika]

Frontlines is not competitive? No wonder the afk farmers are the true winners. As long is this is the view you'll never be rid of them. I know I harp about everyone only focusing objectives and all. However, if you have a few close games where every team is trying to grab their last 300 points farming objectives isn't that competitive? Like...somewhere within rereading this thread I got lost, and now I'm trying to find my way back to the pack.

One can claim, as SeaJae does, that any PvP mode is definitionally competitive. True, but only semantically. I agree with Valence that any practical definition requires all players to actually compete (typically over something meaningful like a ladder ranking).

If I was to take this definition at face value then most of the games that are played are not competitive the moment someone says "go next game" simply because they're not having fun with their current placement at that time. You honestly don't need a ladder in order for things to turn sweaty at the flip of a dime. Things can simply heat up over some small thing that no one should be caring about to begin with. If folks want to compete over the monthly ladder, let them. They're getting their bliss for that moment....honestly, I have no clue why people use the ladder to begin with. It only shows wins but no win rates. You don't get any rewards for being at the top of the ladder. No gil, no temporary titles, nothing. I have to be missing something there. Just saying.

[Valence]

Can you not see the difference between a ladder with an elo system and a quick match casual game and the opponents you're paired against? As long as you'll not be able to accept that players in casual games all have different goals and skill levels and that this creates a very specific environment, then yes, you'll be trying to find your way back to the pack. Trying to make casual modes more sweaty or "competitive" is never going to happen unless you get rid of all the casual population, aka, turning it into a ranked ladder.

[Mawlzy]

Frontlines is not competitive? No wonder the afk farmers are the true winners. As long is this is the view you'll never be rid of them.

My point is that NA FL is not competitive because of the presence of AFK farmers. To be rid of them, it is not enough to change one's view. Something practical has to be done to be rid of them.

[Mistress_Irika]

Can you not see the difference between a ladder with an elo system and a quick match casual game and the opponents you're paired against? As long as you'll not be able to accept that players in casual games all have different goals and skill levels and that this creates a very specific environment, then yes, you'll be trying to find your way back to the pack. Trying to make casual modes more sweaty or "competitive" is never going to happen unless you get rid of all the casual population, aka, turning it into a ranked ladder.

Unfortunately, I don't. I see the devs pushing hard for the casuals while leaving little for those who takes the game serious. This game isn't exclusive to this. I know the difference between and elo match based game and random based game. This game does a poor job of showing it. In your rank games there's hardly a difference between casual gameplay and rank until you reach platinum, and even then you may need to hit diamond or be matched with diamond in order to see any sort of difference. I can accept that everyone has different goals. Some play to have fun. Some play to win. I play to improve. That point is valid. I cannot accept being told this is the only way to play frontlines from solely one view point. Premades are guilty of this. How are casuals any different though? All I'm being told from that group after a few rule changes is screw the win. Play to have fun. My fun is in the moment, not sitting 60% of my games out of fights just to farm, finishing 2nd with only 500/1600 points and saying GG because they didn't place last. How is that type of gameplay fun?

My point is that NA FL is not competitive because of the presence of AFK farmers. To be rid of them, it is not enough to change one's view. Something practical has to be done to be rid of them.

That's up to the community. If folks are not able to kick out the afk farmers every game that should be an answer of how folks view frontlines and how they want it to be. It took a few rule changes to get to that point. I suspect it'll take a few rule changes and/or adding incentives in order for that to change.

[Valence]

I'm definitely not saying that one group or the other should yield to make room for the other. But hearing people complain about the random casual base being so "useless" and "xp bots" and "unwilling to learn" is just plain showing an inability to read the room in my opinion. It's gonna be the case in any online pvp game, with casual/quick match modes being overrun by casual gameplay, and lower ranks of ladder being also overrun by headless chickens running all around.

When it comes to DRK specific abuses and whatnot, that's even another story, and directly related to SE being unwilling to do anything about it. Quoting alliance chat from my daily today to illustrate as soon as people understood there was a premade in the other team (red):
- focus yellow so red wins faster
- let them win end end this suffering

[Mistress_Irika]

I'm definitely not saying that one group or the other should yield to make room for the other. But hearing people complain about the random casual base being so "useless" and "xp bots" and "unwilling to learn" is just plain showing an inability to read the room in my opinion. It's gonna be the case in any online pvp game, with casual/quick match modes being overrun by casual gameplay, and lower ranks of ladder being also overrun by headless chickens running all around.

When it comes to DRK specific abuses and whatnot, that's even another story, and directly related to SE being unwilling to do anything about it. Quoting alliance chat from my daily today to illustrate as soon as people understood there was a premade in the other team (red):
- focus yellow so red wins faster
- let them win end end this suffering

That's something that I can agree on. Too bad that those that needs to learn this are those who are going to accept very little to no criticism.

I'll try not to say anything about premades any longer. I keep saying that every single premade sucks at getting out of sandwiches. Yet most is so determined to get rid of premades entirely just to remove yet another obstacle that's preventing them from freely getting to the objectives easier. Also, I keep forgetting that we willingly accept sandwiching and farming the team who's in last place except when it's being done to them and calling this a valid reason to turning frontlines into 2 teams instead of calling this a legit strategy. What do I know?

I'm going to the corner now.

[HylianBebop]

Honestly, the Custom Match - Frontline option would allow for competitive matches in an event setting, and I think that is probably the appropriate place/method to handle players who seek out that type of play style. I don't think trying to push Frontline more towards a ladder/ranked direction would be a good idea. I do think, as I obviously originally posted, general efficacy on NA/EU could improve and lead to naturally closer matches that feel more competitive, but that's the extent of what I'd every want to see in normal queue matches.

[Delacya]

I only want to add the suggestion that there be ranked matches for FL like there are for CC. I think that would be fun, and potentially a lot less aggravating for the players that have no interest or time in dedicating to a ranked system.

Now, I will go hide under my hermit boulder and likely forget that I posted here for several months. ♥