Ideas on Fixing/Improving Frontline - Balance, Map Design, UI/UX, Objectives

[Mawlzy]

Personally, I don't see the problem with large AoE bursts or why people are calling for it to be nerfed. Being the attacker and getting 16+ kills is an amazing feeling, and Frontlines is the only place you can get that.

While this is also possible in Rival Wings, the difference is that single-target burst is viable in that mode thanks to LB generation and reduced damage resistance.

Modern pvp is all about bursting correctly, and when there are 48 enemies on the field it will always be about bursting the most targets in the shortest amount of time. Since single target isn't viable, group AOE is the solution (and a more fun one at that). If you cap AoE at 5, matches will get real boring real quick.

I'd suggest describing FL PvP as "modern" is a stretch.

Getting 16+ kills may be an "amazing feeling" for the bursting stack, but it is largely responsible for the tedious gameplay we're currently experiencing.

[HylianBebop]

Since single target isn't viable, group AOE is the solution (and a more fun one at that). If you cap AoE at 5, matches will get real boring real quick.

I'd agree that single target is not viable in the current toolkit, but in the previous two iterations, there was more of a focus on single target bursts than there is now, and I felt like matches in one of those iterations (Stormblood kit) felt way better than what we have now. It felt like single target/small group bursts happened more frequently, and in general you have more prolonged engagements rather than the cat-and-mouse setups we see now. Yes, in the Stormblood iteration, AOE bursts picked up towards the end, culminating with the AOE burst setups involving mass sleep + ranged LBs all going off at once. They just did not happen as often. AOE abilities were mostly used in conjunction with healing role actions (IE SAM using AOE rotation + bloodbath to stay engaged in a fight longer). So IMO, from what I remember of the Stormblood kit + matches I played, fewer group bursts, heavier emphasis on marking a single player and calling quicker bursts on them, more constant engagement because you could self-sustain better in crowds. Also, CC resistances for each type on top of role action immunity abilities like Fettered Ward or WAR IR on a 30s CD to help you stay in a fight longer than you currently can via purify.

I originally had a bullet point that was essentially about how I'd like SE to cange the toolkit to switch focus to single target abilities + AOE Debuff/Buffs/Support, change AOE DPS tools to be paired with self-sustaining skills so it's not about doing a lot of AOE damage so much as keeping you in the fight longer. But then I thought about it and decided that I'd actually rather SE look more closely at Rival Wings, which despite using the same toolkit, feels like AOE damage is not really a problem. That's because of the nature of the map design + multiple objectives. So if Frontline maps could be reworked to encourage more frequent objectives needing attention because they're crucial to winning (moreso than just simply running around to setup ambushes), then you would have more spread out engagements where you're not seeing 24-48 enemies "grouped up" ever, so the AOE meta loses its potency without changing a thing about the toolkit.

[Mawlzy]

So if Frontline maps could be reworked to encourage more frequent objectives needing attention because they're crucial to winning (moreso than just simply running around to setup ambushes). Thus you have more spread out engagements where you're not seeing 24-48 enemies "grouped up" ever, so the AOE meta loses its potency without changing a thing about the toolkit.

Big "if" IMO. First it requires SQEX to devise such maps, then it requires reprogramming players that are used to zerging around after a waymarker. If DRK+ stacking still works, it'll continue to define the meta.

I'd suggest capping AoEs as you suggest, combined with a smaller gap between individual burst and 1-2-3 damage output, would be a more realistic path to distributed battles and skirmishes. The current mass bursting is a low-skill, monotonous playstyle that completely underutilizes FL potential.

[Sinstrel]

1) Cap All AOE based damage to 5 targets, including Limit Breaks

I've seen this argument a lot on these forums. I understand why, but I think it would be more fun if they just uncapped healing/support from just affecting your own party. It would inadvertently buff a lot of rarely used jobs and allow for a much more diverse meta.

One criticism is that this could potentially make support/heal jobs overpowered. I wasn't around long enough to know if this was actually the case at some point in the history of Frontlines. Perhaps it was and maybe you could share your experiences if that was the case. I'm interested to hear about it.

[Miki_L]

2 team Frontline can lead to games where the winning team happens to be stacked (premades or just better players) and they end up stomping the other team, leading to base camping and people giving up and afking in spawn. To counteract this, you would need comeback mechanics which then would make close games feel annoying because getting a slight lead at the wrong time may actually put you into an unfavorable position. The 3 team system can counteract this, where the 3rd team can punish the stacked team if they try to gang up on a weak team.

Those games where people give up immediately are "quit moments". Even if it just happens occasionally, the experience will be traumatizing enough that they refuse to engage in the mode anymore. This is not good for a mostly casual mode that requires large amounts of players to queue. We saw this in the previous iteration of shatter, where a skilled team could absolutely stomp the other teams with not much risk of getting flanked or losing objectives. These matches, on the losing side, led to a lot of agonizing or even toxicity as people sit in spawn and insult their teammates instead of playing. You could maybe argue that the random map gimmicks from CC make more sense in frontline than in CC itself, which is designed as a hardcore competitive mode.

[Archeron]

"Being Traumatized" Is not a valid defense of anything. This is PvP. If you can't handle losing a match, you should try another game like the Sims, or Hello Kitty Adventure Island. PvP ain't your thing if you feel that way.

People quitting or not even trying falls under lethargic gameplay, which is a violation of ToS. Also, people are basically already quitting in the 1v1v1 system so that doesn't really fly. If you're getting stomped in team 1v1 PvP, it will end quickly. Nobody in CC is getting traumatized and asking for a third team to participate. (Which has a casual mode, no expectations of hardcore gameplay.) If its a "Balancing" issue, then introduce balancing. Speaking of stomping, how is that already not going on? Don't pretend that there aren't matches that basically devolve into a 2v1 where it's pointless to even leave spawn because your entire team is just going to get jumped by two teams at once for no logical reasons. This is the nature of PvP. The skilled, and coordinated teams win, the weak, disorganized ones lose. If anything being absolutely crushed should be motivation for all these ice licking casuals who like to sit around and die repeatedly for their roulette bonus to actually make an attempt at trying to do their best for once.

[JokoCGN]

since I'd like to see some balancing in PvP frontlines for 7.1 / 7.2, too..
all u're ideas give me a feeling that it's just gonna be easier for them PvE peeps to join PvP and no better gameplay for the peeps interested in PvP itself.

[FatCatEnjoyer]

BEING TRAUMATIZED FROM FRONTLINES LOL

[Gunz_Zbestest]

It would be boring without a 3rd party to pinch other teams and would take away the need for situational awareness. Imagine the dominant team also getting all the nodes on their side. There are fights where the 3rd place team has pulled ahead and won as well. Sometimes it's just bad rng.

[Gunz_Zbestest]

The three teams just creates a dynamic where the losing team can throw for whichever team they like. I prefer my matches end with the most skilled team winning the game. That doesn't happen in a 1v1v1 setting. Just look at half the matches on seal rock without premades. North spawn, or South spawn teams get camped and farmed at their spawn points and they're denied the ability to even capture a single node for several minutes that effectively seals their fate in third or second place without the intervention of RNG spawning nodes right at their doorstep. Even Onsal is guilty of this happening as well, though unlike Seal Rock the node spawns are at least loosely balanced and defensible between the teams.

Three way PvP is not a good idea if you care for competitive PvP.

1v1 PvP has always been superior, and if one team is getting slaughtered, they lose the match and it ends quickly for them. There is a reason the vast majority of PvP games are 1v1, not 1v1v1. If you want your comeback in a 1v1 setting you better work for it and not hope that one of the other 2 hostile teams throws for you.

(In response to this post)