Ideas on Fixing/Improving Frontline - Balance, Map Design, UI/UX, Objectives

[HylianBebop]

Wish List Items

1) Restore the Option for 8v8v8
Yes, we know why this option was killed off. It was abused hardcore by win farmers and botters. For those who don't know, whenever Frontline queues couldn't support 72 people, after a certain time had passed, it would try to fill a 24 person match with 8 people on each side, with some objective and point adjustments. However, back then, you could have an 8-person premade ... so premades abused the hell out of this to get easy wins. Not to mention, botters, who were usually the free trial accounts, used PVP as a preferred method to level up. So if you were not in a premade, you were stuck with the bots...and usually lost.

So, we could have a few options for bringing this back. First, it could come back exactly as it was, with it implementing after enough time passed for 72-person matches not popping. However, restrict it to solo queue only (any type of premade for this would give too ridiculous of an upper hand, so sorry it shouldn't be allowed at all in this situation). Also, since free trial accounts can't play PVP now, you won't have to worry about rampant botters (hopefully). Second, it could become a special option to queue into in the PVP menu, like the Casual and Ranked CC modes. You'd have to queue into 8v8v8 mode, and you could allow any number of people to party together (up to 8 people). This would be clearly described as a mode where you could encounter a strong premade team, so queue at your own risk. Third, you could give us custom matches....

[HylianBebop]

2) Enable Custom Match Options like Crystalline Conflict Has
This has been my personal biggest ask for Frontline for nearly 5 years. tl;dr, there is a PVP community called Revival that spearheaded the return of Rival Wings queues after Square Enix pretty much abandoned the mode (despite being asked to make a Daily Challenge option for it like Frontline, it's still left for dead) outside of making it active for 1 month a patch during the Moogle Tomestone events. This community organizes events on certain DCs on different days to keep Rival Wings somewhat active in the time between these Moogle Tomestone events.

I bring up this community because it, like many others, also hosts Frontline events with the intent of bringing together veterans who want a more competitive style Frontline match. They also organize other cool themed events. The problem is, the only way this is possible is to call out a time (usually a Server Time) plus queuing up in another language other than your clients (in NA's case, Japanese language usually) to maximize the chance that all 72 of you get into this match. This type of event, known as a Queue Sync (Q Sync), is also routinely held on EU and JP DCs with varying degrees of success.

Ultimately, it would be so much easier if we could have a custom match option that allowed us to form the parties in advance and queue into the match without all the hassle of server times and specific languages. Not to mention, we could ensure certain players got onto specific sides to better balance the teams for a more competitive match. Or, in the dream big fashion, organize international matches where one side is NA, one is EU, and one is JP for a sort of exhibition match to see how the different regional play styles stack up. Or organize silly things like turning off healing, restricting certain jobs, turning off objectives (so it's just a win by kills match), etc.

The point is, it makes organizing easier, makes some incredible fun possibilities a reality, and could also be used as a teaching tool to take newcomers in and guide them with everyone under the understanding it's a training/teach match. Content creators/guide makers could also get better access to clean footage showcasing different things. And people could join as spectators to maybe provide commentary on matches in a stream setting, or commanders could be a non-participant who could see the viewpoint of any of their teammates to make their calls. Also, you could just add the 8v8v8 option I talked about before here as a custom setting (as well as 16v16v16 if you wanted).

And custom matches would not count towards anything, so no exp, no tomes, no achievements, no series points. Just like custom CC matches.

[HylianBebop]

3) Explanations on all Frontline Related Changes
We get these for things related to CC, but why not Frontline? Why did they change the Shatter map? Why did they take Secure offline? Why did X job get their HP or damage modified? We're left guessing without any actual answers. It would be nice to gain some insight into the developer's intentions to help better inform the community.

Finally, a Crazy Idea

1) Change Frontline into a 2 Team Format
This idea has been gaining traction in the PVP community for a few months now. Essentially, I believe it is easier to balance a mode around 2 teams than 3. Leave up the current version of Frontline until this new one would be ready, but when it arrives, I would expect newly designed maps and objective locations, shorter match time (probably 15 mins like rival wings, with the aim of most matches lasting less than that). That way if things do get out of hand, the match just ends pretty quickly, like it does in Rival Wings currently (with some matches ending in about 5 mins if its really bad). But at least its not dragged out for 10+ minutes like it is in Frontline with 3 teams, you'd likely get more wins each day on average, meaning you'd get your achievements and rewards faster, too.

However, I do really like the 3 team format and feel it's part of Frontline's unique identity, and we have Rival Wings as the large-scale 2 team mode already. But I would be remiss in not at least mentioning this as I've seen many friends and fellow PVP players discussing this option, and if it ultimately would lead to better Frontline match quality, I would be all for it.

Closing
Thanks for reading all of that if you did! I really love Frontline (and Rival Wings!), and feel lit is a vastly underused and underestimated piece of content for Final Fantasy XIV. My viewpoint for Frontline is to make it feel good to play for everyone, which doesn't always mean catering to veteran/hardcore PVP players, but casual players as well. This is because Frontline is the casual PVP mode of the game. Yet, it can be better for everyone, and I think there are ways to change it to improve the experience for newcomers and veterans alike. I also have ideas for adjusting/improving Rival Wings, but I'll save that for another day. Please let me know what you think and what are some of your own ideas!

[Aravell]

I disagree with making fall damage non-lethal. Perhaps a damage reduction is fine, like normally lethal falls at 100% HP would drop you to 20% instead.

The reason I think fall damage should remain lethal is because golfing a DRK with invuln up is a valid tactic and one of the few counters against that job, since they still die to fall damage while in invuln.

[Mawlzy]

I disagree with making fall damage non-lethal. Perhaps a damage reduction is fine, like normally lethal falls at 100% HP would drop you to 20% instead.

The reason I think fall damage should remain lethal is because golfing a DRK with invuln up is a valid tactic and one of the few counters against that job, since they still die to fall damage while in invuln.

Agreed, and the current maps don't really make fall damage a major cheese.

[Valence]

1) Pretty much proposed by most people at this point, and a good solution imo.
2) I'm generally against any kind of crowd control resistance buffs because they're a nightmare to track (they did that in a previous pvp version during the second half of SB up to the first half of ShB, it was hell). However I do agree with the analysis of the problem. Still, people need to learn that in FLs, if you're out of Purify, you're a free meal for crowd control. It isn't that different from CC as a mode, you can get chain stunned pretty hardcore and die immediately because of it, but perhaps due to the nature of FL Purify could be extended to 10s immunity there but I'd be cautious as it would also give unreasonable tools for good players to abuse when going in notably DRKs. But I do understand that stacking bullshit like miracle of nature or pull ins is infuriating: for the former, that skill has been total cancer in all pvp modes and it should be removed (problem solved), and for the latter, perhaps making Purify work as a ward against salted earth and blota would go a long way already. Chaining those abilities without any counter is cheesy and infuriating.
3) Not gonna lie, I understand the reasoning, but I hate the solution. Removing the most satisfying parts of each pvp toolkit is not what I'd call engaging. The problem with AoE stacking doesn't come from LBs, it comes from all AoEs. You don't need a Skyshatter or a Bahamut stack to nuke everyone down after your DRK pulled everyone. You just need regular AoEs, some of the biggest offenders being Macrocosmos.
4) Why would we not be able to lose BH? That's one of the main ways to keep a winning team in check. And half of the fun is scoring kills on BH5 and big threats from enemy teams. Making it earned as a team isn't great either because it dilutes skill expression. BH has to be earned in my opinion. It's fine-ish in RW because it only affects your light party, but not in FL.
7) Shatter has many, many issues, but yes, that would help already. The current unsafe ices are gigantic noob traps that only serve to punish new players that just try to follow objectives.
8) Kills have always mattered more than objectives. The problem is that currently it's easier to stack kills because of DRK abuse, especially on casual players. Fix the DRK combo, you'll probably fix a lot of issues already, then we'll see if we need more done. Murder balls have been a thing since they increased mount speed in FL in ShB: before it took a lot more time to travel around, and while I do understand they did it for fun, it also removed a lot of localized skirmishes. I do agree that they need to double down on favoring local skirmishes but for that to be fruitful they'll really need to dial down melee innate DR.
9) You learn by getting killed. I unabashedly liked golfing and I find it a shame it's literally gone today. It was also one of the funniest parts of SWTOR pvp frontlines. A non issue right now anyway, because there is no more lethal golfing to be had. The only place I actually find golfing useful is to kill tanks under invuln, notably cocky DRKs on the middle platform in Onsal. I'd hate to see this go.
10) The pre 6.1 system also had issues.


I do agree with all the points of the wish list except for the removal of the trinity in FL. I am staunchly opposed to it and I am absolutely convinced this is going to dramatically increase the amount of one sided games. People have no idea how much this system alleviates that problem. I've seen it in other pvp games, if one of the two teams is just better, they win unless there is some come back mechanics, and the trinity is exactly that. It doesn't always work because people are dum dums, but it's still been relatively successful in my experience on EU and in fact, generally when it doesn't work is because the objective spawns literally force you to fight the wrong team and perhaps there is something to be done there to favor objective spawns near the winning team (while removing objectives directly inside bases, those are stupid).

[Mawlzy]

I've advocated for custom FL matches for multiple reasons. There really is a need for this. Everything from helping sprouts learn the mode, testing strats, promoting high-quality matches of veterans, "fun" oddities like single job matches, different team/party sizes, and so on.

It would also avoid the gaslighting we get from smaller Discord servers, where we learn:

Non-language-filtered Q-synchs are disruptive to regular FL matches;
But it's okay if me and my friends do it.

[Archeron]

The three teams just creates a dynamic where the losing team can throw for whichever team they like. I prefer my matches end with the most skilled team winning the game. That doesn't happen in a 1v1v1 setting. Just look at half the matches on seal rock without premades. North spawn, or South spawn teams get camped and farmed at their spawn points and they're denied the ability to even capture a single node for several minutes that effectively seals their fate in third or second place without the intervention of RNG spawning nodes right at their doorstep. Even Onsal is guilty of this happening as well, though unlike Seal Rock the node spawns are at least loosely balanced and defensible between the teams.

Three way PvP is not a good idea if you care for competitive PvP.

1v1 PvP has always been superior, and if one team is getting slaughtered, they lose the match and it ends quickly for them. There is a reason the vast majority of PvP games are 1v1, not 1v1v1. If you want your comeback in a 1v1 setting you better work for it and not hope that one of the other 2 hostile teams throws for you.

[gidsonBrand]

Personally, I don't see the problem with large AoE bursts or why people are calling for it to be nerfed. Being the attacker and getting 16+ kills is an amazing feeling, and Frontlines is the only place you can get that.

While this is also possible in Rival Wings, the difference is that single-target burst is viable in that mode thanks to LB generation and reduced damage resistance.

Modern pvp is all about bursting correctly, and when there are 48 enemies on the field it will always be about bursting the most targets in the shortest amount of time. Since single target isn't viable, group AOE is the solution (and a more fun one at that). If you cap AoE at 5, matches will get real boring real quick.

[OliviaLugria]

2 teams is great an all, but 4 teams seems like the obvious solution.