Next Exploration Area

[CuteBucket]

I remember hearing that lots of people hated Bozja, but me and my friend group all loved it. I just don't understand why people hated it so much, I really don't. I read the complaints and they're things like "It's an ugly zone" (okay, fair enough I guess) and "it's all just constant fighting. Fighting enemies, fighting FATEs, fighting in CEs, fighting in raids" which is a ridiculous complaint to me because of course it is, it's a battle content mode. This to me is like someone trying PvP and complaining that the enemy team attacked them too much. ...yeah? That's kind of the whole point?? If you don't have fun doing battle content, go do something else. I wanna fight things though, but not always in the context of a savage raid party, just in a fun low stakes way. And if people thought Bozja was too difficult...

...how? It really isn't. A bunch of people dying in Red Choctober is not "too difficult." You die, you learn, you dust yourself off and try again.

Too many times I have encountered players who think dying is an inherently bad thing or that it means they made a terrible mistake. As in tried a thing once or twice, didn't perform perfectly, and then complain that it's too hard and never want to attempt it again. And all I gotta say to that is (and how I try to encourage Sprouts to try harder content for the first time): No, it's very normal to die while learning any fight in this game, even "easy" ones (and dozens and dozens of times learning and clearing something like Savage). Just because I'm a raider doesn't mean I won't occasionally eat an AOE that I missed coming in a dungeon mid-boss fight and eat some floor. It just happens. It's normal and fine. It's nothing to get upset and freak out over. Dying in a battle does not mean you lost, or that you suck, or that the boss is too hard to kill, or whatever.

I think everyone is capable of learning and playing this game and getting good at a job and clearing even the hardest of fights. 99.9% of the time, I don't believe the problem lies in gameplay skills, or lack thereof, but with a negative, defeatist attitude problem. When people approach this game with the mentality of "If I die in this fight, everyone is going to think I suck" or "If I die in this fight, then that's BS, I shouldn't have died to that single hit, I can't believe this," then they are setting themselves up to have a terrible time doing anything but the most brain dead, paste-eating level of content. But is that actually any fun? Does it make them feel accomplished? Happy? Or are they still miserable anyway?

[Jeeqbit]

I always said in Stormblood that "Eureka was a giant success and it's difficult to see how they wouldn't do more of it in Shadowbringers" due to how many people I saw doing it (despite the complaints, which were pretty universal especially on these forums). What I said was very unpopular here at the time.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Whatever they’re doing to the next field content, I just pray they do not ruin it like they ruined Eureka Orthros for the DD community (or so have I heard).

[Voidmage]

I always said in Stormblood that "Eureka was a giant success and it's difficult to see how they wouldn't do more of it in Shadowbringers" due to how many people I saw doing it (despite the complaints, which were pretty universal especially on these forums). What I said was very unpopular here at the time.

This.
Eureka was a success. So many people did it and still do it. Can’t say that about other things in the game (Variant) because it is the perfect mix of just jumping into and having to dedicate yourself enough.
The complaints were actually pretty substantial for a big part back then like party leveling being a pain, Pagos enemy placement or the slow light grind.
Most of the complaints were either worked on in Eureka itself or in Bozja later.
Heck if I’m honest field content is probably one of the best examples in the game of devs taking feedback the correct way.

I like field content and look forward. It was never perfect and it didn’t want to be but it formed a nice community around itself and gave me lots of longtime fun.
The only criticism I had with Bozja was the color plate and that the fates spawned too fast sometimes.
Other than that the critical engagements were fun, the gear was cool and the raids inside are what I actually consider raids (the queueing was bad though).

I don’t personally mind fates again but I can kinda agree from another perspective.
If the next field zone is fates again it is in direct competition to two other similar contents.
I don’t know what the solution could be though.

[Valence]

I remember hearing that lots of people hated Bozja, but me and my friend group all loved it. I just don't understand why people hated it so much, I really don't. I read the complaints and they're things like "It's an ugly zone" (okay, fair enough I guess) and "it's all just constant fighting. Fighting enemies, fighting FATEs, fighting in CEs, fighting in raids" which is a ridiculous complaint to me because of course it is, it's a battle content mode. This to me is like someone trying PvP and complaining that the enemy team attacked them too much. ...yeah? That's kind of the whole point?? If you don't have fun doing battle content, go do something else. I wanna fight things though, but not always in the context of a savage raid party, just in a fun low stakes way. And if people thought Bozja was too difficult...

...how? It really isn't. A bunch of people dying in Red Choctober is not "too difficult." You die, you learn, you dust yourself off and try again.

Too many times I have encountered players who think dying is an inherently bad thing or that it means they made a terrible mistake. As in tried a thing once or twice, didn't perform perfectly, and then complain that it's too hard and never want to attempt it again. And all I gotta say to that is (and how I try to encourage Sprouts to try harder content for the first time): No, it's very normal to die while learning any fight in this game, even "easy" ones (and dozens and dozens of times learning and clearing something like Savage). Just because I'm a raider doesn't mean I won't occasionally eat an AOE that I missed coming in a dungeon mid-boss fight and eat some floor. It just happens. It's normal and fine. It's nothing to get upset and freak out over. Dying in a battle does not mean you lost, or that you suck, or that the boss is too hard to kill, or whatever.

I think you're being either disingenuous on purpose and provocative for the sake of it. I have already written multiple times what my problem was with Bozja and Eureka, and you told me "it's probably not the content for you", which is just condescending and dismissive, but I'll admit that yes, in the state it was delivered, 90% of it was probably not for me. But I can indulge and rewrite it once more: this isn't about having to fight or do battle content, it's about the quality of the battle content, and the variety of said battle content. I'm sorry but if you find baseline mob farming and boring fate farming fun, then your expectations are abysmally low. As for the vaunted CEs, they were okay content, but that's where battle variety comes from, because to me they're no different from trial bosses within a circular arena with the same DDR mechanics we see everywhere. Call my expectations too high perhaps, but I'd have imagined to see the devs try... you know, new things, instead of rehashing the same old content with a new skin. Can you truly not see the difference in design between the farming in eureka/bozja, and the endgame instances like CLL/Dalriada? Really? The chasm is gigantic. You have to level up and progress until you finally reach endgame and get the right to finally get into the engaging content. I'm sorry, but how is this good?

And that's without even entering the problem of how scripted XIV is and how bad it meshes with content that's designed to be farmed on repeat for months (especially eureka).

As for dying and difficulty, that's not what matters to me. As long as it's not a total pushover, provided it's actually engaging, I'll be happy.

[CuteBucket]

I think you're being either disingenuous on purpose and provocative for the sake of it. I have already written multiple times what my problem was with Bozja and Eureka, and you told me "it's probably not the content for you", which is just condescending and dismissive, but I'll admit that yes, in the state it was delivered, 90% of it was probably not for me.

I don't know you nor do I follow every post you make. I am speaking generally about what I've seen and heard over the years from the whole community. The post you are replying to wasn't a direct reply to you at all. You previously asked what I liked about bozja and I answered in a separate post. I didn't even say in the post you're replying to "It's probably not the content for you," but even if I did, I don't see how that's an issue. Some content in this game just isn't for me, and that's okay. I have zero interest in crafting and gathering in this game. Diadem and the Firmament? Not content for me. I don't bother with it, or I do the bare minimum to get the story. Fishing? Not for me. Don't like the RNG elements. I get bored. But I have friends who LOVE fishing in this game and get really into it. I have some friends who hate PvP and have zero interest in doing it. It's just not for them. That's to be expected in a huge game like this.

And yes, when I was in there with my friends during Shadowbringers, I found all of that content fun. It wasn't a grind to me, it was a change to goof around and meme with hundreds of other players together. Maybe I just approached it with a very different mindset? Of course I have to take the time to fight through the map, getting stronger as I go to unlock new areas and new fights. I don't think that's a design flaw, I think that's pretty normal mode of progression for video games. Where is the satisfaction if I can just instantly do everything? I'm just really tired of people ragging on some of my favorite content in the history of the game. What did we get instead in Endwalker? Nothing? Island Sanctuary, I guess? Which was a boring, tedious spreadsheet simulator chore that wasn't relaxing or fun at all. The Endwalker patches really hurt from the lack of midcore battle content. I had a couple friends quit the game over it, because they felt like there was nothing for them to do except do casual content (which they found boring and unfulfilling) or raid (which they didn't have the schedule availability and time for).

Of course I want the devs to try new things and make even more unique challenges for the next exploratory zone. I didn't care much for Eureka until the later half of it and Bozja fixed a lot of the issues I had with Eureka, so I'm hoping that they will do the same this time around. But you seem to be expecting some fundamentally different game mode entirely than what the battle system of Final Fantasy XIV even is. Which if you think the game is as is is stale and boring, is a totally fair and valid complaint to have, but have it with the whole game, not just Bozja.

If they release this new thing and it's literally just reskinned Bozja 2 Tropical Boogaloo with nothing new whatsoever, then yes, I suspect I would be annoyed by that.

[Supersnow845]

I think you're being either disingenuous on purpose and provocative for the sake of it. I have already written multiple times what my problem was with Bozja and Eureka, and you told me "it's probably not the content for you", which is just condescending and dismissive, but I'll admit that yes, in the state it was delivered, 90% of it was probably not for me. But I can indulge and rewrite it once more: this isn't about having to fight or do battle content, it's about the quality of the battle content, and the variety of said battle content. I'm sorry but if you find baseline mob farming and boring fate farming fun, then your expectations are abysmally low. As for the vaunted CEs, they were okay content, but that's where battle variety comes from, because to me they're no different from trial bosses within a circular arena with the same DDR mechanics we see everywhere. Call my expectations too high perhaps, but I'd have imagined to see the devs try... you know, new things, instead of rehashing the same old content with a new skin. Can you truly not see the difference in design between the farming in eureka/bozja, and the endgame instances like CLL/Dalriada? Really? The chasm is gigantic. You have to level up and progress until you finally reach endgame and get the right to finally get into the engaging content. I'm sorry, but how is this good?

And that's without even entering the problem of how scripted XIV is and how bad it meshes with content that's designed to be farmed on repeat for months (especially eureka).

As for dying and difficulty, that's not what matters to me. As long as it's not a total pushover, provided it's actually engaging, I'll be happy.

I’m not sure why you see CE’s as just a barely valuable thing that’s there then then to dalriada and act like it’s gods gift to content when on the balance CE’s are basically as; if not more; complex than each individual boss within dalriada and dalriada otherwise is basically just an alliance raid

Don’t get me wrong I love all this content so I’m not arguing it’s bad but I really don’t see what is so good about dal if you are coming from the perspective of someone who thinks that CE’s are okay at best. They both allow the lost action system which is bozja’s real crowning glory, they both have bosses far more complex than anything else in the casual content sphere and they both have unique and interesting solutions (such as reflecting everything red meteor does)

[TaleraRistain]

I tend to agree, OP. Mob farming or FATE farming without any real purpose behind it reminded me too much of my camp and grind days in EverQuest. I found it very boring.

I have the same hope I had for Bozja. A more robust questline that gives purpose to hitting specific targets could help. Also daily missions that randomly pull from a pool of choices, like allied society dailies do. And then weekly missions with a little more depth to them. Integrating DoH and DoL into activities in the zones would also draw in people who prefer non-adventuring pursuits. All of these could give more purpose behind participating, and that could be attractive to a wide variety of players.

There also is a lot of misplaced blame, and I even see it in this thread. People are allowed to not like things and give feedback on why they don't do it. And the developers are the ones who choose whether to respond to that feedback or not. So if content isn't repeated, it's not the fault of the players who didn't like it. It's the fault of the developers for choosing to follow that feedback.

[Valence]

It's funny you mention bringing in doh/dol, which Diadem 1.0 actually did, but they just botched it up, kinda.

I don't know you nor do I follow every post you make. I am speaking generally about what I've seen and heard over the years from the whole community. The post you are replying to wasn't a direct reply to you at all. You previously asked what I liked about bozja and I answered in a separate post. I didn't even say in the post you're replying to "It's probably not the content for you," but even if I did, I don't see how that's an issue. Some content in this game just isn't for me, and that's okay. I have zero interest in crafting and gathering in this game. Diadem and the Firmament? Not content for me. I don't bother with it, or I do the bare minimum to get the story. Fishing? Not for me. Don't like the RNG elements. I get bored. But I have friends who LOVE fishing in this game and get really into it. I have some friends who hate PvP and have zero interest in doing it. It's just not for them. That's to be expected in a huge game like this.

And yes, when I was in there with my friends during Shadowbringers, I found all of that content fun. It wasn't a grind to me, it was a change to goof around and meme with hundreds of other players together. Maybe I just approached it with a very different mindset? Of course I have to take the time to fight through the map, getting stronger as I go to unlock new areas and new fights. I don't think that's a design flaw, I think that's pretty normal mode of progression for video games. Where is the satisfaction if I can just instantly do everything? I'm just really tired of people ragging on some of my favorite content in the history of the game. What did we get instead in Endwalker? Nothing? Island Sanctuary, I guess? Which was a boring, tedious spreadsheet simulator chore that wasn't relaxing or fun at all. The Endwalker patches really hurt from the lack of midcore battle content. I had a couple friends quit the game over it, because they felt like there was nothing for them to do except do casual content (which they found boring and unfulfilling) or raid (which they didn't have the schedule availability and time for).

Of course I want the devs to try new things and make even more unique challenges for the next exploratory zone. I didn't care much for Eureka until the later half of it and Bozja fixed a lot of the issues I had with Eureka, so I'm hoping that they will do the same this time around. But you seem to be expecting some fundamentally different game mode entirely than what the battle system of Final Fantasy XIV even is. Which if you think the game is as is is stale and boring, is a totally fair and valid complaint to have, but have it with the whole game, not just Bozja.

If they release this new thing and it's literally just reskinned Bozja 2 Tropical Boogaloo with nothing new whatsoever, then yes, I suspect I would be annoyed by that.

I feel like you're building strawmen here.

There is a certain amount of content I have never even tried, notably GATEs/Verminion/Races. Yes, I've never ever done a single one of those and let's just say I'm really not a gold saucer fan. Not interested, not for me, so don't go about saying that I want to do everything and that everything should be tailored to me. I even just decided after the last expansion and ACC to drop entirely out of raiding, because it's become very clear that it's not for me anymore either. And, shocker, I strolled through Bozja because I couldn't be arsed, I just did it for the story. Was still painful to progress, but it was somewhat tolerable in comparison to the hell Eureka was, and Eureka didn't even have any meat until the very last quest/epilogue just to give me a middle finger. So there, you have it and I'm fine with it.

There is however one thing that will remain true no matter where we go, on those forums, on social media, all across the community of players, and that's politics, plain and simple. We are all pulling a side of the blanket and our views are often incompatible. There are things you do like, that I don't, and vice versa. I also want to have pve content to play, same as you do. The problem is that yours, is terrible to me, so I am here giving feedback about what I hate about it and what parts of it I'd like to have more of. We all do that. I am also staunchly convinced that having something deeper wouldn't remove all the good aspects of the content that are often mentioned, which is the social aspect that you also quoted, and in fact, the reasons you listed were:

1) busy and lively areas
2) theming
3) CE/duels
4) CLL/Dalriada
5) Lost Actions
6) Rewards
7) Story

The only one we may disagree somewhat on is 3). All the rest are generally universally praised. The only thing I am asking is for quality pve content during the grind and progression (and not outright removing progress as you seem to put words in my mouth). In fine I'm not asking to remove the content, i'm asking for them to improve the base, core gameplay loop of it.

I’m not sure why you see CE’s as just a barely valuable thing that’s there then then to dalriada and act like it’s gods gift to content when on the balance CE’s are basically as; if not more; complex than each individual boss within dalriada and dalriada otherwise is basically just an alliance raid

Don’t get me wrong I love all this content so I’m not arguing it’s bad but I really don’t see what is so good about dal if you are coming from the perspective of someone who thinks that CE’s are okay at best. They both allow the lost action system which is bozja’s real crowning glory, they both have bosses far more complex than anything else in the casual content sphere and they both have unique and interesting solutions (such as reflecting everything red meteor does)

If you can find me alliance raids or anything that has laser hallways with inter alliance coordination and the odd layout at the start of Dalriada, please send me directions because I'd absolutely love experiencing them (the hallways before the last boss of Puppet's Bunker perhaps?.. Kinda...?). I do agree that past that point, Dalriada turns into more generic bosses, although even the generics bosses were pretty daring compared to the usual formula, notably with dual bosses. Guess what I liked the most about Dalriada? The first part yeah. Figures. CLL had a lot more of this, between the first wall bosses, then the prisoners to free with some rng to prevent brainless farming paths and improve reliability, and the place to explore. Even the bosses after had weird ass mechanics, and even more than Dalriada, it was really out of the box compared to the usual formula. But again, I liked the prisoners part the most. It was truly unique and creative, and went away from the usual boss formula.

CEs meanwhile... They're regurgitating the exact same mechanics we have already seen. You want a Construct 7 boss CE? No problemo, we already have it in game. That's the story behind a lot of CEs, but I won't lie, they were definitely a lot better than Eureka's NMs. But is that it? We pick between hunt mark gameplay and fate/trial boss gameplay?