The Raise Tax, and how to address it.

[Raven2014]

This whole “everyone gets points but you don’t have to agree with if they are spent fairly” argument implies that everyone’s “utility” is getting taxed as number of points. If phys ranged have to suffer 10-15% as a damage penalty for their ranged why is VPR not taxed the same, hell why is ranged as a concept even taxed when the melees can drop dozens of GCD’s and still out DPS the ranged. Same as the tanks vs healers. What did the healers “buy” with their 40% less damage than the tanks when the tanks can heal with no penalty

This isn’t hush people unhappy with the allocation of points for their class this is a mathematical imbalance that isn’t remotely justified because it’s intentional balance decisions they force on the classes while providing no justification

Because you missed about half the point I was making.

You're talking as if every point is equal. A mage who has 20 pts in STR doesn't mean they gonna swing their stave as hard as a war who has 20 pts in STR.

You can argue that it's dumb to put 20 pts in STR on a mage, I'm just saying you're not gonna get a refund on those points no matter how dump you think it is.

The point is, to have Raise on their bar, a certain number of points was invested there, and those points had to come from somewhere else. It doesn't matter how much you want to argue the merit of verraise, even if going as far as you never gonna use it, you still not gonna get a refund on those point unless the ability is actually removed from the job.

[Supersnow845]

Because you missed about half the point I was making.

You're talking as if every point is equal. A mage who has 20 pts in STR doesn't mean they gonna swing their stave as hard as a war who has 20 pts in STR.

You can argue that it's dumb to put 20 pts in STR on a mage, I'm just saying you're not gonna get a refund on those points no matter how dump you think it is.

The point is, to have Raise on their bar, a certain number of points was invested there, and those points had to come from somewhere else. It doesn't matter how much you want to argue the merit of verraise, even if going as far as you never gonna use it, you still not gonna get a refund on those point unless the ability is actually removed from the job.

If your point is “equal distribution of points leads to unequal results” then you are basically just advocating for built in mathematical advantage for no other reason than the devs like the advantaged jobs

For example why is there no “tax” for the “points” VPR “invested” in its incredible ranged utility, why is there no tax for the “points” tanks “invest” in healing, why are healers “taxed” on damage for “points” they never invested in the first place

[Lyth]

UF is the highest potency attack in the entire toolkit outside of the last three steps of Reawaken. That should help you understand the 'why' around its prioritization a bit better.

I take it that this is your new strategy from distracting the focus from PCT, which is effectively the new SMN job stone upgrade complete with:

• no downtime tax due to motifs
• 50% sprint uptime due to one of the strongest mobility tools in the game
• raidwide shielding and healing in excess of some physical ranged jobs
• non-existent MP management
• minimal/instant cast times on standard spells

They probably could have classified it as a physical ranged job given the lack of MP dependence/cast time dependance, but for the fact that it's privileged by being Yoshi-p's new favorite job. And we know now that the dev team was afraid of nerfing PCT despite knowing that it is overpowered, because it's popular.

I guess we'll have to wait for after FRU for PCT's motif system to be fixed into something more sensible. Or perhaps the more likely result is they'll be forced to swing to the other extreme for the Welterweight division after the backlash really ramps up during FRU.

[Supersnow845]

I’ve already told you I’m fine with PCT nerfs I’m simply opposed to changing how the motif system works as a reactive balance decision because of FRU. This has nothing to do with if I think PCT does too much damage or not, fact is I simply like the class more than I care about ultimate only balance decisions. I have zero opposition to nerfing PCT’s raw damage in full uptime fights and I have even suggested multiple ways you could nerf PCT

You are the one who seems to think that VPR is giga brained because it has high APM despite having the rotational complexity of a SMN. UF being high priority to stick in burst doesn’t change the fact that it can be used as an incredibly powerful movement tool with only minor loss in DPS via not having it in the burst phase. Going by raven’s point system analogy it should be taxed for that (and before you say anything I’d also say smudge is strong enough to warrant taxes on its DPS if we played along with this system), I’m simply saying that system is flawed as a representative concept because it generates mathematical dominance for no other reason than being a favourite job (a problem you yourself have with PCT)

[Raven2014]

why is there no tax for the “points” tanks “invest” in healing, why are healers “taxed” on damage for “points” they never invested in the first place

Are we gonna pretend that tank is doing as much healing as healer can? Because that sound like what you're doing. Just because both tank and healer can heal, doesn't mean their heal is equal. Again, even if a PLD dumb all their point into CHR and WIS, they still won't out heal a Cleric or Priest, just like vice versa you can put all the STR or CON, they won't out DPS or out tank a PLD. And if you think I'm saying the "build" or point distribution in FF14 is good or optimal, you're missing the point.

They said third time is the charm so I'll try to make it clear again, but if you miss it yet again I'll just give up.

- First, I'm NOT the one who using the word "tax", you do. If anything, part of what I'm saying is I'm arguing "against" the use of such concept as tax because I think it misconstrue the issue.

- Second, if you want use healer as example, one can say too many point is being dump into healing aspect, more than neccessary - hence some would argue the healing kit is overbloat. One can say FF14 healers are built like a Holy Priest, whether a Battle Cleric (less heal, more DPS) seems to be what people are advocating for. And that would be a correct way to look at the issue. Trying compare Healer to Tank is just nonsense masquerading as a tax. If the healers want DPS, if they are given more DPS, it should come at the reduction in healing. I would really hate it if one day if they decide to give healers more DPS while keeping the same overbloat healing kit because that seems to be a good way to make the job even more braindead than it is now.

- And that's my point with issue like Verraise. It's not a tax, it's an investment. You can make a point that it is a BAD investment, you can argue that the point toward that investment should be used some place else (like DPS). I'm simply saying you can not use the excuse "verraise bad" to demand a refund on its investment yet still keep the benefit of that investment. That's called double dipping. But if someone say Verraise should be abolished in favor of more DPS for Redmage, at least that would be an objectively fair argument. However, at that point you also have to consider should that be a allow from an RP/Lore respective. It would be like trying to turn a goblin into a Paladin.

[Lyth]

Melee jobs have always been about mechanical execution, in a game that has always been entirely focused on mechanical execution within fixed encounters. You're not typing a dissertation. It's like learning to play the piano. It really doesn't matter if you read the rotation in a book and understand the theory behind the buttons. You can either play or you can't.

The primary PCT issue is motifs and the lack of a downtime tax. That's what makes it broken in fights with intermissions. PCT's current level of dominance, where it has pretty much 100% usage rate in the caster slot for speedruns, is nothing compared to what we would see in a fight with actual downtime. You will see other casters get locked out from the caster slot in FRU. People have been seeing the writing on the wall for a very long time now.

You could rebalance Smudge so that it has less sprint uptime and so that it's recast is more on par with Aetherial Shift if you like. You could give the job some actual casts on its non-motif spells as well as some MP management, while toning back all the on demand instant casts used for free movement. You could rein back Tempera Coat/Grassa and remove the healing from Star Prism if you felt like it. And you know what, it still would be all for naught if you refused to just rebalance muses by making them usable only in combat with a target present.

To achieve the balance approach that you're suggesting currently, PCT would likely have to be tuned even lower than Raise Casters and Physical Ranged currently are on full uptime fights. And my guess is, that's the solution that they will opt for after the backlash on FRU. Honestly, just balance muses and cap the DH/Crit variance on PCT's burst. It's so much more sensible, and you'll actually get to see some variety in what casters people are playing again.

[Supersnow845]

No I understand your point I’m saying it’s a pointless analogy because “investment” vs tax really doesn’t mean anything different in the context being spoken of. If verraise was worth say 3 “points” of investment and it gets taxed 5 “points” on damage whether you say that’s an “inefficient investment” or a “tax” it doesn’t change the fact that the investment is not equivalent to the same outcome. And since we can’t control the “investment” being made it just leads to mathemcial dominance by the classes that allocate points “efficiently”. Using the healer example the tanks don’t heal more than the healers But there HPS is more efficient, then they have very powerful defensives, if healers lower damage is caused by “over investment” in healing CD’s they don’t need that’s no different than just saying healers are being taxed

So the analogy is rather pointless because so called inefficient investment is not being adequately compensated so saying “verraise is an investment” is a rather pointless statement that doesn’t get to the heart of the issue

Melee jobs have always been about mechanical execution, in a game that has always been entirely focused on mechanical execution within fixed encounters. You're not typing a dissertation. It's like learning to play the piano. It really doesn't matter if you read the rotation in a book and understand the theory behind the buttons. You can either play or you can't.

The primary PCT issue is motifs and the lack of a downtime tax. That's what makes it broken in fights with intermissions. PCT's current level of dominance, where it has pretty much 100% usage rate in the caster slot for speedruns, is nothing compared to what we would see in a fight with actual downtime. You will see other casters get locked out from the caster slot in FRU. People have been seeing the writing on the wall for a very long time now.

You could rebalance Smudge so that it has less sprint uptime and so that it's recast is more on par with Aetherial Shift if you like. You could give the job some actual casts on its non-motif spells as well as some MP management, while toning back all the on demand instant casts used for free movement. You could rein back Tempera Coat/Grassa and remove the healing from Star Prism if you felt like it. And you know what, it still would be all for naught if you refused to just rebalance muses by making them usable only in combat with a target present.

To achieve the balance approach that you're suggesting currently, PCT would likely have to be tuned even lower than Raise Casters and Physical Ranged currently are on full uptime fights. And my guess is, that's the solution that they will opt for after the backlash on FRU. Honestly, just balance muses and cap the DH/Crit variance on PCT's burst. It's so much more sensible, and you'll actually get to see some variety in what casters people are playing again.

Like I said I don’t have a problem nerfing PCT but not its motif design. There are multiple ways you can also tax its downtime without just straight changing its muses

-applying silence during downtime (also affects the healers ability to heal during downtime)
-applying massive slow to cast times (would also affect healers ability to raise or use skills like soulsow)
-apply benefits for constant movement like damage ups

Like I said I don’t mind nerfing PCT but FRU’s balance is not worth the entire class design in my mind. Imagine say farming Bozja for mettle and dealing with only being able to use motifs in uptime during combat, the class would feel like a lead shoed nightmare. Is that less important than FRU

[Valence]

Often time in these kind of topic I think people just miss the point. And it's probably due to the min/max mindset that people try come up with all different angle and logic to justify the "I should be able to do more damage!!", which is what it always come down to. And it's not just the raise tax, but the range tax, the melee tax .etc

For me it's simple if you just view it as a point buy system. Every job has the same point in the pool, and it doesn't matter what you put the point, a point more put into one area (raise, mobility) is a point less you can point less you can put in another area (DPS). It doesn't matter you think that point is well spent or not, it doesn't change the fact it's a point that spent there and you can't spent at other places. It's like if you build a DnD Paladin and decide to put a few points in INT since you don't want to be stupid, but a smart PLD naturally gonna has less STR or CHR and that fact won't change no matter how much you want to argue a Paladin should not have low CHR.

Alright then tell me, if this is all about points, why does SMN do output as much damage as ranged physical jobs (and more than MCH even), when it puts point into mobility, uptime AND raise AND heavy party healing? Meanwhile on BRD or MCH, I only have points in uptime. Not in raising, not in healing, and certainly not in mobility. By that logic SMN should be doing 30% less damage than every ranged physical job. I took SMN as the most extreme example but it also works for RDM which offers way better support than rphys, but I could also take DNC that has actual support compared to the pitiful options we have on BRD/MCH, and yet it does the same party damage contribution.

Similarly on the melee's end, why does MNK output the same damage than other melees in spite of investing points into Mantra?

The reality is that there is no rational rule behind this like points and investment into feats. It's just arbitrary.